January 2021 State of the Jazz Address


Saint Cy of JFC

Well-Known Member
I did love the people on here saying he’d be the backup this year... I was firm in telling them we’d sign a vet... we then rolled out 3/30 for Favs. So unless we trade Favs then Dok ain’t getting any time the next few years. 1st rounders that don’t play basically lose their trade value so you won’t get anything for Dok.

Hughes looks fine but could have grabbed Bane and if both guys turn out they can both be on the court at the same time... crazy concept.

Then you also have the fact that backup center is the easiest thing to find in FA on a budget. Favs signing is fine imo because we needed to fix that issue and there is some certainty there... Udoka basically needs to be Capela to be a worthwhile pick and we may never know if he’s any good... filing your backup center need in 3 years is a tough use of a first rounder.
Im not going to cry over Bane because the fact is that he probably wouldn't get minutes on this team. He also hasnt looked that good according to the advanced stats (which I know arent very important this early, but I'm just saying he isnt a guy we should handwring about missing out on just yet).

I'm holding out hope the Jazz can flip Clarkson for someone with a defensive identity who can play the 2/3 and is at least a net neutral on offense.
 


jom2003

Well-Known Member
Long term we need more dynamic wings... pretty much the toughest thing to find.
If we didn't waste 10 draft picks on point guards and third string bigs I'm sure we’d have it by now. We could have had either Keldon Johnson or Darius Bazley on this team with that 2019’s 23rd pick alone.
 

Saint Cy of JFC

Well-Known Member
I think it's extremely stupid to reduce everything down to the backcourt is too small that's why they can't defend.

Remember, on the perimeter wingspan is typically more important than reach. Both Mitchell and Conley have giant wingspans relative to their height.

Conley has a 6'6 WS and Mitchell a 6'10. Even Clarkson has a 6'10 wingspan.

I get that standing reach is also obviously a factor, but even if you account for that, then the two metrics would average out to the backcourt being average sized at worst. I think it's just such an easy thing to harp on and scapegoat since height is the easiest thing to see.
 

Saint Cy of JFC

Well-Known Member
Like I said, you just can't trust guys like Joe and Bojan for very long cuz they can fall off at any time. And as for Bojan, I'm afraid that time has come. They will still show signs of their prime self on some night, but you simply can not trust them every night like you used to. An old team still trying to compete when the window has already closed on them. That's how I feel about this team right now. It's still not too late for DM and Rudy as I believe there are still a lot of good basketball left in them, but the way this team is constructed...You may just have to hope that they will stick around as we head towards a rebuild trying to get younger/more athletic even though we should have done it a ****ing long time ago.
Bojan was just on fire last game. I really doubt he has fallen off after a career year just because of a wrist injury. He'll work through it.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
Im not going to cry over Bane because the fact is that he probably wouldn't get minutes on this team. He also hasnt looked that good according to the advanced stats (which I know arent very important this early, but I'm just saying he isnt a guy we should handwring about missing out on just yet).

I'm holding out hope the Jazz can flip Clarkson for someone with a defensive identity who can play the 2/3 and is at least a net neutral on offense.
He wouldn't have played this year... but he has a very easy path to playing time long term and has an opportunity to grow into a starter. I'm only focused on him because someone asked me to call my shot after complaining about the pick. He's played fairly well, but its super early.

I could get down with the Udoka pick if we had signed a one year vet backup. It currently doesn't make sense. I like him as a prospect after watching him a little but don't have faith that we will trade Favs to get him meaningful playing time in the first 2 years. The Tony Bradley pick was tragic from the get go and I never had hope... I think there is a chance Dok turns into a Capela type player.
 

LoPo

Well-Known Member
I think it's extremely stupid to reduce everything down to the backcourt is too small that's why they can't defend.

Remember, on the perimeter wingspan is typically more important than reach. Both Mitchell and Conley have giant wingspans relative to their height.

Conley has a 6'6 WS and Mitchell a 6'10. Even Clarkson has a 6'10 wingspan.

I get that standing reach is also obviously a factor, but even if you account for that, then the two metrics would average out to the backcourt being average sized at worst. I think it's just such an easy thing to harp on and scapegoat since height is the easiest thing to see.
Read Cy.

I never said it was because they were too small. I said it's because none of them are defenders. They are offensively focused players who aren't good defenders.

They just happen to be undersized too.


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Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
I think it's extremely stupid to reduce everything down to the backcourt is too small that's why they can't defend.

Remember, on the perimeter wingspan is typically more important than reach. Both Mitchell and Conley have giant wingspans relative to their height.

Conley has a 6'6 WS and Mitchell a 6'10. Even Clarkson has a 6'10 wingspan.

I get that standing reach is also obviously a factor, but even if you account for that, then the two metrics would average out to the backcourt being average sized at worst. I think it's just such an easy thing to harp on and scapegoat since height is the easiest thing to see.
I think the combination of the small backcourt and Royce's inability to check guards is the issue. Why doesn't Quin put DM or Conley on the Kyrie types?

I think that either one of DM and Conley need to be able to guard those guys or we need an upgrade on the wing. Height is one component of that equation.
 

LoPo

Well-Known Member
I think the combination of the small backcourt and Royce's inability to check guards is the issue. Why doesn't Quin put DM or Conley on the Kyrie types?

I think that either one of DM and Conley need to be able to guard those guys or we need an upgrade on the wing. Height is one component of that equation.
I think one of the main things people don't remember or realize is that the Conley addition was made with the assumption that Dante Exum would be our weapon against other team's elite scorers. Dante would come off the bench and be one of our main matchup perimeter defenders. Well, he didn't pan out and we traded for somebody who could help us more.

The "problem" is that our master plan went out the window when we sacrificed the 6th man defender concept for the 6th man scorer reality. We added Conley and Bojan's offense to the defense provided by Rudy, Royce, Joe and Exum. Joe and Royce have either regressed or not reached the heights while Exum flamed out.

We simply don't have the perimeter defenders. I think the solution is sacrificing Clarkson or Conley in order to get a more balanced rotation that includes more quality perimeter defense. That's not going to happen because Don just defends better. We need another player dedicated to defense.
 

Saint Cy of JFC

Well-Known Member
I think the combination of the small backcourt and Royce's inability to check guards is the issue. Why doesn't Quin put DM or Conley on the Kyrie types?

I think that either one of DM and Conley need to be able to guard those guys or we need an upgrade on the wing. Height is one component of that equation.
Royce wasnt exclusively on Kyrie last night? I seem to remember Donovan checking him as well, at least in the 1st.
 

Saint Cy of JFC

Well-Known Member
Read Cy.

I never said it was because they were too small. I said it's because none of them are defenders. They are offensively focused players who aren't good defenders.

They just happen to be undersized too.


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I read you're post and you keeping harping on height over and over and over. You can backtrack all you want like you've done on Conley this year, but we have receipts.
 

KqWIN

Well-Known Member
This thread is about the team. Even if Don becomes MJ overnight, this team is flawed because we don't have enough perimeter defense. We aren't built for today's NBA. Sure we can look cute at times, but we aren't a real threat.

As for Don, I just disagree with you. I think he is better and has a bigger influence on the game than his own fans give him credit for.

Don’s best version of himself is an elite defensive player. He has that potential and ability. He has the ability right now to be a plus defender, he just doesn’t put in effort. I don’t why we should have to build around an area of his game that should be strength.
 

LoPo

Well-Known Member
I read you're post and you keeping harping on height over and over and over. You can backtrack all you want like you've done on Conley this year, but we have receipts.
Quit lying and changing the rules of conversation.

Our issue isn't size. Our issue is the lack of perimeter defenders. It just so happens that our 3 offensive minded guards we rely on are bad at defense and undersized.
 

KqWIN

Well-Known Member
If DM can develop to a plus defender and he hits the pullup three that might be enough to push us into the contender convo. He'd be a no doubt all-star and a "winning player" type all-star.

Long term we need more dynamic wings... pretty much the toughest thing to find.

Everyone in the league needs dynamic wings, they are very important. But everyone also needs superstar players, and Mitchell can be one of those guys if he improves.

If he does the things you mentioned and cleans up his decision making, he can be a better defending Kemba Walker. But I think the best version of Mitchell is as an elite point of attack defender. That’s what it’ll take for him to be a top 10 player.

I don’t think we should cap Mitchell’s defense and I think it’s ridiculous that we’d be content with him being the non defender he is now.
 

LoPo

Well-Known Member
Don’s best version of himself is an elite defensive player. He has that potential and ability. He has the ability right now to be a plus defender, he just doesn’t put in effort. I don’t why we should have to build around an area of his game that should be strength.

Still not the point.

Answer me this - if Donovan somehow became Gary Payton on defense, would we have enough to win the title?

My answer is no because nobody can be expected to maintain top notch defense for 48 minutes. What we need is for Don to improve AND add more perimeter defense. We simply lack the perimeter defense we need unless Oni, Shaq and Hughes emerge and are actually trusted by Quin. And then we would have to lessen the minutes for Don, Clarkson and Conley to get the much needed defender out there.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
Everyone in the league needs dynamic wings, they are very important. But everyone also needs superstar players, and Mitchell can be one of those guys if he improves.

If he does the things you mentioned and cleans up his decision making, he can be a better defending Kemba Walker. But I think the best version of Mitchell is as an elite point of attack defender. That’s what it’ll take for him to be a top 10 player.

I don’t think we should cap Mitchell’s defense and I think it’s ridiculous that we’d be content with him being the non defender he is now.
I agree. The dynamic wing mention is there to really address that I know we have issues there too. I've long thought our ultimate destiny rests on how high DM can take us. When he came into the league folks thought he was gonna be a better version of Avery Bradley.

Quin needs to challenge him on that end... even if that means we have some bad nights when he gets smoked.
 

Cptgrnlngs22

Well-Known Member
This thread is about the team. Even if Don becomes MJ overnight, this team is flawed because we don't have enough perimeter defense. We aren't built for today's NBA. Sure we can look cute at times, but we aren't a real threat.

As for Don, I just disagree with you. I think he is better and has a bigger influence on the game than his own fans give him credit for.

I agree. It’s also irritating to see Niang play with bogey since Niang is pretty much a beggars version of Bogie. I want to see the jazz try oni and Shaq more. We still need a bigger perimeter defender though. Joe and Royce could use less minutes and Niang should forfeit playtime for now to clear some room for oni and Shaq to give us a little bit more defensive presence.


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outerspacefan

Well-Known Member
Please make me know me when we get any dudes with the ability to contain the other team star dude to just an above average performance. That will be the time when we'll be able to compete for WCF.
Of course it will nonetheless be of help if your 200M dollar players could start playing like ones BEFORE you're 20 down.
 

Saint Cy of JFC

Well-Known Member
Quit lying and changing the rules of conversation.

Our issue isn't size. Our issue is the lack of perimeter defenders. It just so happens that our 3 offensive minded guards we rely on are bad at defense and undersized.
And out of those 3 players you have identified as "bad at defense" who has the best defensive tools?
 

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