January 2021 State of the Jazz Address


LoPo

Well-Known Member
Here's how I see our roster:

Rudy - foundational piece who we are built around right now
Pro's - establishes our defensive identity and sets great screens
Con's - good opponents can scheme him out

Don - foundational piece and one for the long term
Pro's - he's a fantastic offensive player who is still improving
Con's - not a good defender

Ingles - big part of our identity
Pro's - he can do a bit of everything
Con's - can't be relied on for too many minutes

Clarkson - top notch 6th man
Pro's - can score in bunches
Con's - not a good defender or passer

Royce - strong rotation player
Pro's - unselfish, hardworking team glue guy
Con's - can't guard elite scoring PG's and is reluctant to shoot

Conley - great vet
Pro's - can run the offense and has been shooting well
Con's - not a good defender

Bojan - great stretch 4
Pro's - elite shooter who works hard
Con's - not a good defender

Favors - strong rotation player
Pro's - works hard at defending and rebounding
Con's - can't be relied on for too many minutes

We have too many guys to put the ball in the basket and not enough guys who stop the other team from putting the ball in the basket. Just look at the list of good defenders on our team:
Rudy - elite defender
Favors - good post defender
Royce - solid wing defender, poor PG defender
Ingles - declining solid wing defender

We don't have a single "good" wing or scoring PG defender on the entire team. We have 3 undersized offense-first PG/SG's. We have a PF who can shoot but not defend. We have two solid wing defenders who are limited in who they can defend.

People come at me because I have been critical of Conley. I actually like Conley, but he's an awful fit with Don and Clarkson. Too many chuckers and not enough defense. I pick on all 3 of them when I say that. When you add these 3 to Bojan, we simply play too many guys who aren't good defenders. We will never reach our goals built like this. Either Conley, Don, or Clarkson have to be sacrificed in order to prioritize the defense we sorely need.

We struggle sometimes on offense because we simply don't make the opponent work hard enough on defense. When buckets are easy to come by, the opponent can work harder guarding us. Until our roster is better prepared to prioritize defense, our ceiling is low.

Go Jazz
 


movedaball

Member
Here's how I see our roster:

Rudy - foundational piece who we are built around right now
Pro's - establishes our defensive identity and sets great screens
Con's - good opponents can scheme him out

Don - foundational piece and one for the long term
Pro's - he's a fantastic offensive player who is still improving
Con's - not a good defender

Ingles - big part of our identity
Pro's - he can do a bit of everything
Con's - can't be relied on for too many minutes

Clarkson - top notch 6th man
Pro's - can score in bunches
Con's - not a good defender or passer

Royce - strong rotation player
Pro's - unselfish, hardworking team glue guy
Con's - can't guard elite scoring PG's and is reluctant to shoot

Conley - great vet
Pro's - can run the offense and has been shooting well
Con's - not a good defender

Bojan - great stretch 4
Pro's - elite shooter who works hard
Con's - not a good defender

Favors - strong rotation player
Pro's - works hard at defending and rebounding
Con's - can't be relied on for too many minutes

We have too many guys to put the ball in the basket and not enough guys who stop the other team from putting the ball in the basket. Just look at the list of good defenders on our team:
Rudy - elite defender
Favors - good post defender
Royce - solid wing defender, poor PG defender
Ingles - declining solid wing defender

We don't have a single "good" wing or scoring PG defender on the entire team. We have 3 undersized offense-first PG/SG's. We have a PF who can shoot but not defend. We have two solid wing defenders who are limited in who they can defend.

People come at me because I have been critical of Conley. I actually like Conley, but he's an awful fit with Don and Clarkson. Too many chuckers and not enough defense. I pick on all 3 of them when I say that. When you add these 3 to Bojan, we simply play too many guys who aren't good defenders. We will never reach our goals built like this. Either Conley, Don, or Clarkson have to be sacrificed in order to prioritize the defense we sorely need.

We struggle sometimes on offense because we simply don't make the opponent work hard enough on defense. When buckets are easy to come by, the opponent can work harder guarding us. Until our roster is better prepared to prioritize defense, our ceiling is low.

Go Jazz

Where the love button on this thing?


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Bawse Dawg

Well-Known Member
We can expand Bogey's cons:
"An absolute disaster when he puts the ball on the floor"

I don't know why the dude can't just be Klay Thompson and get 30 on ten dribbles. There is so much "my turn for a terrible iso possession" on this team. If everyone played for the best shot, played hard on defense, and didn't care about stats we would be so much better. I thought everyone getting paid would let them mesh well and just worry about winning. But it's worse than ever and a big stain on Quin's resume if it doesn't get resolved. Not sure if you guys have heard of 'The Secret' regarding the NBA. But that is what this team needs, and what is absolutely does not have.
 

Agent#00

Well-Known Member
Notice every time bogey drives he falls on the floor? This looks like an excuse to not get back on defense and the other team knows it, so they just run and we, on the other side are outnumbered on defense.
 

KqWIN

Well-Known Member
I think we're where we've been for awhile: A good team that won't be a real contender unless we see significant improvement for Don. This will come off as hate for him, but that's not what I'm going for. He's the only one with the potential to elevate his game enough to allow this team to take the next step. We don't have other avenues of significant improvement.

If Mitchell takes big steps and becomes a true superstar we can be a contender. If he doesn't, we'll continue to be a 50ish team and that still counts for something. Early on it's hard to be encouraged by what Mitchell has shown in his development. After having a terrific rookie year, he hasn't gotten significantly better and it's been tough to see similar players in age surpass him. I still think he has potential to be a superstar, but he has significant work to do on both ends. He's not close to being an elite offensive player and his defense continues to get worse and worse over time.

There's a lot of weight on Don's shoulders. Everything else is secondary to his development.
 

LoPo

Well-Known Member
I think we're where we've been for awhile: A good team that won't be a real contender unless we see significant improvement for Don. This will come off as hate for him, but that's not what I'm going for. He's the only one with the potential to elevate his game enough to allow this team to take the next step. We don't have other avenues of significant improvement.

If Mitchell takes big steps and becomes a true superstar we can be a contender. If he doesn't, we'll continue to be a 50ish team and that still counts for something. Early on it's hard to be encouraged by what Mitchell has shown in his development. After having a terrific rookie year, he hasn't gotten significantly better and it's been tough to see similar players in age surpass him. I still think he has potential to be a superstar, but he has significant work to do on both ends. He's not close to being an elite offensive player and his defense continues to get worse and worse over time.

There's a lot of weight on Don's shoulders. Everything else is secondary to his development.

I agree that Don has to continue to improve and his poor defense has to be addressed. This doesn't all fall on Don though.

Expecting Don to be everything is too much. Nobody has been everything. Everybody needs help. Just look at the 3rd quarter of Game 7 against Denver. Don was flat out amazing on both ends. He was scoring buckets from everywhere while shutting down Murray on the other end. What happened? He got gassed and nobody else picked up the slack in the 4th. No NBA greats could do that for an entire half because they always had help. Sure LeBron would guard Tony Parker, but only in the 4th. That's a bit much. Phil Jackson always saved Pippen for the 4th quarter and he didn't even have to carry the offensive load.

Just look at the history of the game. Every great team has great defense or at least great defenders. Every superstar has had their fair share of selfless wing defenders aiding them.
Jordan had Pippen to guard the best player from the opposing team. Before Pippen, Jordan was McGrady.
Isiah Thomas had Dumars, Aguire, others.
The Spurs had Bowen, Elliott.
Steph has Klay, Draymond
Even Iverson had Eric Snow and Aaron McKey doing the dirty work when they made their run.

I was hoping that Royce would emerge as a Bruce Bowen type of guy. He's just isn't. I love his hustle, but he can't lock down great small scorers.

We need more perimeter defending. And we need it more than we need all 3 small offensive minded guards (Don, Clarkson and Conley).
 

KqWIN

Well-Known Member
I agree that Don has to continue to improve and his poor defense has to be addressed. This doesn't all fall on Don though.

Expecting Don to be everything is too much. Nobody has been everything. Everybody needs help. Just look at the 3rd quarter of Game 7 against Denver. Don was flat out amazing on both ends. He was scoring buckets from everywhere while shutting down Murray on the other end. What happened? He got gassed and nobody else picked up the slack in the 4th. No NBA greats could do that for an entire half because they always had help. Sure LeBron would guard Tony Parker, but only in the 4th. That's a bit much. Phil Jackson always saved Pippen for the 4th quarter and he didn't even have to carry the offensive load.

Just look at the history of the game. Every great team has great defense or at least great defenders. Every superstar has had their fair share of selfless wing defenders aiding them.
Jordan had Pippen to guard the best player from the opposing team. Before Pippen, Jordan was McGrady.
Isiah Thomas had Dumars, Aguire, others.
The Spurs had Bowen, Elliott.
Steph has Klay, Draymond
Even Iverson had Eric Snow and Aaron McKey doing the dirty work when they made their run.

I was hoping that Royce would emerge as a Bruce Bowen type of guy. He's just isn't. I love his hustle, but he can't lock down great small scorers.

We need more perimeter defending. And we need it more than we need all 3 small offensive minded guards (Don, Clarkson and Conley).

Bogey is essentially another all offense, no defense "guard" as he provides no big man value. Ingles defense is also rapidly disappearing as he ages. I agree that the roster composition is not great, but that's just another reason why Mitchell needs to become a defender. He's the only one capable. What makes him a poor defender is a lack of effort and interest. You don't get to use the excuse of shouldering a huge offensive load when there are so many other players on the team that play offense and nothing else.

The other thing about the history of the game is that superstar players win. Mitchell is not close to a superstar. He's a borderline all star and probably won't even make it this year. His offense is not elite on it's own so he kinda has to be a better defensive player to reach that level as an overall player. At this point it's highly doubtful that he reaches the highest peaks of offensive production. He's no Steph, Harden, Dame, Luka, Young, ect. Those guys are elite scorers and playmakers. He's not an elite scorer and is a poor playmaker. So he has to be a better defender to compensate.

Superstars are few and far in between. It's not Don's "fault" if he doesn't become a superstar. But that is what is necessary for this team to take the next step. It doesn't really matter if we find an elite perimeter lockdown defender if Mitchell is still a borderline all star. Role players are important, but it won't matter Donovan's development continues to go at the pace it's going.
 

LoPo

Well-Known Member
Bogey is essentially another all offense, no defense "guard" as he provides no big man value. Ingles defense is also rapidly disappearing as he ages. I agree that the roster composition is not great, but that's just another reason why Mitchell needs to become a defender. He's the only one capable. What makes him a poor defender is a lack of effort and interest. You don't get to use the excuse of shouldering a huge offensive load when there are so many other players on the team that play offense and nothing else.

The other thing about the history of the game is that superstar players win. Mitchell is not close to a superstar. He's a borderline all star and probably won't even make it this year. His offense is not elite on it's own so he kinda has to be a better defensive player to reach that level as an overall player. At this point it's highly doubtful that he reaches the highest peaks of offensive production. He's no Steph, Harden, Dame, Luka, Young, ect. Those guys are elite scorers and playmakers. He's not an elite scorer and is a poor playmaker. So he has to be a better defender to compensate.

Superstars are few and far in between. It's not Don's "fault" if he doesn't become a superstar. But that is what is necessary for this team to take the next step. It doesn't really matter if we find an elite perimeter lockdown defender if Mitchell is still a borderline all star. Role players are important, but it won't matter Donovan's development continues to go at the pace it's going.
But what you're asking of Don isn't realistic. None of the "superstars" you mentioned enhanced their defense to get to superstar status. They became more efficient offensively, earned respect, and got more calls from the refs due to respect they had earned (not Trae but whatever). And none of those guys are having to defer to a system built around Rudy. Yes, Rudy helps us win, but he doesn't help Don throw up eye popping stats which people equate with a "superstar". That's not how our system works. The only way Don gets to the 10 assist range is if the league starts counting hockey assists. Our whole system is screen, pass, pass to the corner, shot.

I do agree that he needs to become a plus defender. You are absolutely right; but our team isn't going to become a contender with Don going from a poor defender to a slightly above average or even good defender. We need to replace a ball dominant offensive guy with a better version of Royce. We need more perimeter defenders. That's how we take the next step.

When it comes to the playoffs, I believe that Don has achieved superstar status. What he did as a rookie and what he did last year has him there. He has been incredible despite almost zero offensive help his first two postseasons and almost zero perimeter defensive help last postseason. He stumbled some in 2019, but he had some glimpses despite a poor showing.
 

KqWIN

Well-Known Member
But what you're asking of Don isn't realistic. None of the "superstars" you mentioned enhanced their defense to get to superstar status. They became more efficient offensively, earned respect, and got more calls from the refs due to respect they had earned (not Trae but whatever). And none of those guys are having to defer to a system built around Rudy. Yes, Rudy helps us win, but he doesn't help Don throw up eye popping stats which people equate with a "superstar". That's not how our system works. The only way Don gets to the 10 assist range is if the league starts counting hockey assists. Our whole system is screen, pass, pass to the corner, shot.

I do agree that he needs to become a plus defender. You are absolutely right; but our team isn't going to become a contender with Don going from a poor defender to a slightly above average or even good defender. We need to replace a ball dominant offensive guy with a better version of Royce. We need more perimeter defenders. That's how we take the next step.

When it comes to the playoffs, I believe that Don has achieved superstar status. What he did as a rookie and what he did last year has him there. He has been incredible despite almost zero offensive help his first two postseasons and almost zero perimeter defensive help last postseason. He stumbled some in 2019, but he had some glimpses despite a poor showing.

Don needs to become a better player full stop. Defense is the lowest hanging fruit. He's bad, but he's only bad because of a complete lack of effort. There's no justifying that IMO. There are players that are significantly better than him on both ends.

Even if he becomes average or plus on defense, there's still a long way to go on offense before he's close to elite. He had an incredible series against DEN, but if you're going to count his rookie year, you also have to count his sophomore year when he had one of the worst playoff series of all time.

All in all, he's a borderline all star player. That's great, it's good to have those players. But he's really nowhere close to the player he needs to be if we are to compete for a championship. Strong role players are not bringing us to contention. You can't be a contender with Rudy, a borderline all star, and strong role players. Once again, it's not his fault if he can't become a superstar. But that's the only thing that will truly elevate this team.

His lack of development OTOH....yeah that's concerning to me. It's discouraging to see so many players in the same age/experience range catch up to him or surpass him after a killer rookie season.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
Don needs to become a better player full stop. Defense is the lowest hanging fruit. He's bad, but he's only bad because of a complete lack of effort. There's no justifying that IMO. There are players that are significantly better than him on both ends.

Even if he becomes average or plus on defense, there's still a long way to go on offense before he's close to elite. He had an incredible series against DEN, but if you're going to count his rookie year, you also have to count his sophomore year when he had one of the worst playoff series of all time.

All in all, he's a borderline all star player. That's great, it's good to have those players. But he's really nowhere close to the player he needs to be if we are to compete for a championship. Strong role players are not bringing us to contention. You can't be a contender with Rudy, a borderline all star, and strong role players. Once again, it's not his fault if he can't become a superstar. But that's the only thing that will truly elevate this team.

His lack of development OTOH....yeah that's concerning to me. It's discouraging to see so many players in the same age/experience range catch up to him or surpass him after a killer rookie season.
If DM can develop to a plus defender and he hits the pullup three that might be enough to push us into the contender convo. He'd be a no doubt all-star and a "winning player" type all-star.

Long term we need more dynamic wings... pretty much the toughest thing to find.
 

LoPo

Well-Known Member
Don needs to become a better player full stop. Defense is the lowest hanging fruit. He's bad, but he's only bad because of a complete lack of effort. There's no justifying that IMO. There are players that are significantly better than him on both ends.

Even if he becomes average or plus on defense, there's still a long way to go on offense before he's close to elite. He had an incredible series against DEN, but if you're going to count his rookie year, you also have to count his sophomore year when he had one of the worst playoff series of all time.

All in all, he's a borderline all star player. That's great, it's good to have those players. But he's really nowhere close to the player he needs to be if we are to compete for a championship. Strong role players are not bringing us to contention. You can't be a contender with Rudy, a borderline all star, and strong role players. Once again, it's not his fault if he can't become a superstar. But that's the only thing that will truly elevate this team.

His lack of development OTOH....yeah that's concerning to me. It's discouraging to see so many players in the same age/experience range catch up to him or surpass him after a killer rookie season.
This thread is about the team. Even if Don becomes MJ overnight, this team is flawed because we don't have enough perimeter defense. We aren't built for today's NBA. Sure we can look cute at times, but we aren't a real threat.

As for Don, I just disagree with you. I think he is better and has a bigger influence on the game than his own fans give him credit for.
 

LogGrad98

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Yeah we know perimeter D and backcourt D are our primary weaknesses. This was evident in the bubble. So we draft a big we could have had in the 2nd round and we don't go after any wing talent at all. Um. Ok. Just speechless. Again I think the FO is all about slow and steady puts butts in the seats and not trying to win a ring. That's too risky. Play it safe. Pay the bills. The fans are loyal because wtf else are they going to watch? The Beez or whatever?
 

movedaball

Member
I been on that corner since draft night. Look in the bright side though... we’ve made this exact mistake twice... probably only have to make the mistake a few more times before we stop doing it. We are almost there.

Maybe we can shoot for a backup PG instead? Someone 6’0”-6’1” ish who likes to shoot a lot? There should be a lot of those in 14-30 range is we can hang on to our draft pick... lol


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Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
Yeah we know perimeter D and backcourt D are our primary weaknesses. This was evident in the bubble. So we draft a big we could have had in the 2nd round and we don't go after any wing talent at all. Um. Ok. Just speechless. Again I think the FO is all about slow and steady puts butts in the seats and not trying to win a ring. That's too risky. Play it safe. Pay the bills. The fans are loyal because wtf else are they going to watch? The Beez or whatever?
I did love the people on here saying he’d be the backup this year... I was firm in telling them we’d sign a vet... we then rolled out 3/30 for Favs. So unless we trade Favs then Dok ain’t getting any time the next few years. 1st rounders that don’t play basically lose their trade value so you won’t get anything for Dok.

Hughes looks fine but could have grabbed Bane and if both guys turn out they can both be on the court at the same time... crazy concept.

Then you also have the fact that backup center is the easiest thing to find in FA on a budget. Favs signing is fine imo because we needed to fix that issue and there is some certainty there... Udoka basically needs to be Capela to be a worthwhile pick and we may never know if he’s any good... filing your backup center need in 3 years is a tough use of a first rounder.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
Maybe we can shoot for a backup PG instead? Someone 6’0”-6’1” ish who likes to shoot a lot? There should be a lot of those in 14-30 range is we can hang on to our draft pick... lol


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Even using the pick like that might have been wise... if Mike bails this summer that player could get playing time. To draft a center I’d have to either need a center, they’d have to be a unicorn, or they’d have to be so much better than the wing talent in their draft range that you have to take them.
 

jom2003

Well-Known Member
Like I said, you just can't trust guys like Joe and Bojan for very long cuz they can fall off at any time. And as for Bojan, I'm afraid that time has come. They will still show signs of their prime self on some night, but you simply can not trust them every night like you used to. An old team still trying to compete when the window has already closed on them. That's how I feel about this team right now. It's still not too late for DM and Rudy as I believe there are still a lot of good basketball left in them, but the way this team is constructed...You may just have to hope that they will stick around as we head towards a rebuild trying to get younger/more athletic even though we should have done it a ****ing long time ago.
 

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