Jazz and Knicks discussing Donovan Mitchell trade per Shams Charania and Tony Jones

[KqWIN]

The whole... "they have to pay them" argument is kinda silly. Yeah... you can only take on so much bad money for picks... we will have infinity cap space next couple years. Lock one of these dudes up. I don't think it takes a full max which would be 5/188. I think you can do it at 5/150-160M. It will look like a damn steal when the cap goes up by 50%... which is when guys like Grimes, Toppin, and IQ will hit FA and get properly paid.

We could also wait him out this year and match an offer later. I'd want to know what his demands were... I don't think full max is necessary.

Meh...I think it's a real argument. I think he has a season similar to how his second half was last year. I don't want to be on the bill for it when that happens. He put up crazy counting stats but wasn't a good player. It may be impossible to give out a bad contract at this time with the cap rising (similar to the Hayward situation), so that's a good point.

This is especially the case if we're getting Barrett instead of other picks/prospects. If Barrett was coming over as neutral-ish value that would be one thing, but if NYK is putting him on the table they're going to do so thinking he's a premium prospect. I'd rather just stay away from Barrett and get the other stuff instead. My feeling is that the opportunity cost is too high to get him back in a trade.

 

[KqWIN]

Who will have more scrutiny? Who is more comfortable being uncomfortable? Who would it hurt more to have a rocky start due to unresolved business?

Even if Don says on camera he wants to go to the Knicks I don't think it tips the scales much. We know he won't be here beyond his deal.

This last offer imo was kind of like the appetizer to the real offer Knicks are hoping we accept... if they throw that offer out and its rejected then I think both teams will bear down for a fight. This still feels like the first round where they are feeling each other out.

I don't think Don will ever say to a camera that he wants out or wants to go to the Knicks. He will stay silent and if he wants to force the trade, I think he would prefer that the Knicks give up a little bit more instead of publicly pressuring the Jazz and becoming hated.

The Knicks are going to get **** on by their local/national media until it doesn't get done. For the longest time I believed that would give us the edge in the waiting game. But I have to say, it's also really hard for the Jazz to bluff that they're ok with running it back with Don and no Center. The schedule made it obvious that no one really believes the Jazz are going to have Mitchell on the team next year.

Things don't truly get uncomfortable until camp comes...but with 3 parties experiencing discomfort (NYK, UTA, Mitchell), I'm thinking it's tilted in our favor because Don will put more pressure on the Knicks than he will the Jazz to avoid being the bad guy.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Meh...I think it's a real argument. I think he has a season similar to how his second half was last year. I don't want to be on the bill for it when that happens. He put up crazy counting stats but wasn't a good player. It may be impossible to give out a bad contract at this time with the cap rising (similar to the Hayward situation), so that's a good point.

This is especially the case if we're getting Barrett instead of other picks/prospects. If Barrett was coming over as neutral-ish value that would be one thing, but if NYK is putting him on the table they're going to do so thinking he's a premium prospect. I'd rather just stay away from Barrett and get the other stuff instead. My feeling is that the opportunity cost is too high to get him back in a trade.

I think it is still kind of posturing by one side or the other. We want 4 unprotected picks and they are like "how about 2?". We might counter with 2 unprotected and RJ and that might be preferable for them. He's going to get marginalized on that roster.

The danger for them is they want to make a second move. It's easier to do that with fluid assets... they also just extended Randle and it turned out horribly. I wonder what RJ could do on a team with more spacing and the guy is 21. I don't think he is a finished product at all.

Normally with guys like RJ where they are counting stats guys the fan base kinda hates em... I am seeing primarily panic from Knicks at moving RJ instead of picks. I also think there are diminishing returns on picks and cap space if you have too much at one time.

 

[framer]

Are we entirely certain that Don actually WANTS New York? I mean I think his shoe company wants him there, probably his Mom too. I'd bet if he had a choice he would be in Miami. There are probably a few other teams he might like better.

I'm fairly certain he will not be on a better team if he spends the rest of his career in New York than what he already had here in Utah.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don't think Don will ever say to a camera that he wants out or wants to go to the Knicks. He will stay silent and if he wants to force the trade, I think he would prefer that the Knicks give up a little bit more instead of publicly pressuring the Jazz and becoming hated.

I was being dramatic with the strongest demand possible.

The Knicks are going to get **** on by their local/national media until it doesn't get done. For the longest time I believed that would give us the edge in the waiting game. But I have to say, it's also really hard for the Jazz to bluff that they're ok with running it back with Don and no Center. The schedule made it obvious that no one really believes the Jazz are going to have Mitchell on the team next year.

The schedule made it apparent that people thought KD was getting moved. They guessing like all of us. Its hard to bluff especially once we trade Bogey and Bev plus some stuff to the Lakers.

Things don't truly get uncomfortable until camp comes...but with 3 parties experiencing discomfort (NYK, UTA, Mitchell), I'm thinking it's tilted in our favor because Don will put more pressure on the Knicks than he will the Jazz to avoid being the bad guy.

I think the discomfort has more consequences for them than us... so unless they rise above it and play well coming out of the gate... I think it will help us. Those guys will all have in the back of their heads that they are getting traded for Don and it likely has some effect.

 

[KqWIN]

I think it is still kind of posturing by one side or the other. We want 4 unprotected picks and they are like "how about 2?". We might counter with 2 unprotected and RJ and that might be preferable for them. He's going to get marginalized on that roster.

The danger for them is they want to make a second move. It's easier to do that with fluid assets... they also just extended Randle and it turned out horribly. I wonder what RJ could do on a team with more spacing and the guy is 21. I don't think he is a finished product at all.

Normally with guys like RJ where they are counting stats guys the fan base kinda hates em... I am seeing primarily panic from Knicks at moving RJ instead of picks. I also think there are diminishing returns on picks and cap space if you have too much at one time.

You know me....I think picks are highly overrated in this deals, but I also think RJ is also overrated and I think NYK are likely to want to hold onto him extra tight. I don't think he's a finished product, but I think the Knicks are probably looking at RJ like a 21 year old who averaged 25/6/4 after the break last year. Why wouldn't they...it's true. When you look at it that way he's a young, budding star player. But me personally I'm still questioning if RJ is a starting level player at all. He's far from a finished product, but what people are hoping/expecting him to become is very different from how I see it.

 

[KqWIN]

I was being dramatic with the strongest demand possible.


The schedule made it apparent that people thought KD was getting moved. They guessing like all of us. Its hard to bluff especially once we trade Bogey and Bev plus some stuff to the Lakers.


I think the discomfort has more consequences for them than us... so unless they rise above it and play well coming out of the gate... I think it will help us. Those guys will all have in the back of their heads that they are getting traded for Don and it likely has some effect.

Yeah I'm thinking the Jazz have an edge here too. I also think that there's less downside potential for the Jazz. What I mean by that is that it's unlikely the Knicks go lower than whatever they're at....and if they do it can't be very significant. There might not be a good chance the Jazz find a better offer or do something like a Myles Turner trade (anything that means the Knicks don't get Mitchell)....but if that happens it is a true catastrophe for the Knicks. They would get clowned on so badly if they let Mitchell slip. If they cave in and pay a little bit extra for Mitchell, they'd still get praised for it.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

You know me....I think picks are highly overrated in this deals, but I also think RJ is also overrated and I think NYK are likely to want to hold onto him extra tight. I don't think he's a finished product, but I think the Knicks are probably looking at RJ like a 21 year old who averaged 25/6/4 after the break last year. Why wouldn't they...it's true. When you look at it that way he's a young, budding star player. But me personally I'm still questioning if RJ is a starting level player at all. He's far from a finished product, but what people are hoping/expecting him to become is very different from how I see it.

I don't love him... but he's the right player type that if he does do the finish work you are on to something pretty great. He seems like a very hard worker... so I think he will realize something close to his ceiling (whatever that is). If Knicks gave us an option of 2 unprotected and RJ (plus stuff) or 4 unprotected picks... I'd take 4 I think. They might see the two unprotected picks as a better trade asset than RJ so they don't offer us that.

If it is 2 unprotected picks and RJ or 3 unprotected picks and no RJ... I'd take RJ for sure. He's worth 1.5 unprotected picks I guess. lolz

Can we just end this thing already... we know Ainge will get like 80-90% of what he wants and we know the Knicks want Don... just for the love of everything holy end it.

 

[NUMBERICA]

For sure. They should attach a pick or two and try to get Westbrook from the Lakers then start Toppin.

I really don’t understand this Randle to LA nonsense at all. He’s about the only player that’s an even worse fit than Westbrook is. I don’t understand how anyone is seriously discussing it.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yeah I'm thinking the Jazz have an edge here too. I also think that there's less downside potential for the Jazz. What I mean by that is that it's unlikely the Knicks go lower than whatever they're at....and if they do it can't be very significant. There might not be a good chance the Jazz find a better offer or do something like a Myles Turner trade (anything that means the Knicks don't get Mitchell)....but if that happens it is a true catastrophe for the Knicks. They would get clowned on so badly if they let Mitchell slip. If they cave in and pay a little bit extra for Mitchell, they'd still get praised for it.

I said somewhere else that if I was Ainge and if things aren't resolved in a week or two I'd start loudly inquiring about Daniel Theis. He is in Indiana now and has two years left on his deal. I'm sure a straight expiring contract would get the deal done. Just make sure the Knicks hear about you trying to execute win-now moves to fill the holes on the roster. Might even do that deal and make them really panic. It would be like when you get up from the table with the used car salesman and have one hand on the door and they yell "wait... okay I'll give you the damn floormats".

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I really don’t understand this Randle to LA nonsense at all. He’s about the only player that’s an even worse fit than Westbrook is. I don’t understand how anyone is seriously discussing it.

It all comes from Knicks fans that assume LA wants him and that it somehow adds value. I know the Lakers are dumb... but they have to be figuring this out by now right.

 

[Elizah Huge]

Meh...I think it's a real argument. I think he has a season similar to how his second half was last year. I don't want to be on the bill for it when that happens. He put up crazy counting stats but wasn't a good player. It may be impossible to give out a bad contract at this time with the cap rising (similar to the Hayward situation), so that's a good point.

This is especially the case if we're getting Barrett instead of other picks/prospects. If Barrett was coming over as neutral-ish value that would be one thing, but if NYK is putting him on the table they're going to do so thinking he's a premium prospect. I'd rather just stay away from Barrett and get the other stuff instead. My feeling is that the opportunity cost is too high to get him back in a trade.

He is a premium prospect lmao.

 

[Elizah Huge]

I really don’t understand this Randle to LA nonsense at all. He’s about the only player that’s an even worse fit than Westbrook is. I don’t understand how anyone is seriously discussing it.

I said they should try never said it would happen.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

He is a premium prospect lmao.

If he has an Ingram like glow up in him I think this is the season it would manifest itself. Problem is you probably need to give him the extension before the season starts. He might top out at like a Harrison Barnes level player... its a gamble we should take if the costs aren't super high here.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

With regard to a Cleveland offer.... they could do the following:

25/27/29 unprotected
pick swap in 2023 with the Minny pick (they owe it to Indiana if it is outside the lotto)
Sexton
Okoro
Love - who we could reroute to Lakers

We send Don and whatever to match salary.

That's better than the Miami deal. Better than the most recent proposal from Knicks.

 

[KqWIN]

I don't love him... but he's the right player type that if he does do the finish work you are on to something pretty great. He seems like a very hard worker... so I think he will realize something close to his ceiling (whatever that is). If Knicks gave us an option of 2 unprotected and RJ (plus stuff) or 4 unprotected picks... I'd take 4 I think. They might see the two unprotected picks as a better trade asset than RJ so they don't offer us that.

If it is 2 unprotected picks and RJ or 3 unprotected picks and no RJ... I'd take RJ for sure. He's worth 1.5 unprotected picks I guess. lolz

Can we just end this thing already... we know Ainge will get like 80-90% of what he wants and we know the Knicks want Don... just for the love of everything holy end it.

I think RJ is a hard worker and NYK's roster is really bad for how he plays, or how he tries to play...I just don't see great tools or indicators that I like in young prospects. He's awful at finishing at the rim, isn't a defensive playmaker, and has really bad touch all around. To me he comes off as a fake good athlete. He looks the part, but he's really bad at everything athleticism should help him with. His game is not smooth at all which puts him in a bad predicament because he can't gain advantages with his athleticism or craftiness. The best thing I can say about him is that he plays really hard and he's a decent passer, but he simply hasn't been very good and I don't see a lot of potential in him becoming a star or transitioning to a strong role player. It's not a Wiggins/Brown situation where he has a ton of tools but just needs more polish...he's just not that talented from what I've seen.

If NYK is valuing him at 1-2 draft picks that's one thing, but If I had to guess I bet they're valuing him closer to 3 picks, maybe more. I don't think the question 3 vs 2 with RJ. I think it's more like 3+Quickley vs 1+RJ. I think there are many in Knicks land that think RJ is an elite prospect on a rookie deal, some people here would agree with that. You're not getting RJ for the price of one 1st. I think the opportunity cost is MUCH higher.

 

[Maneesh]

Jazz Now Have Strong Interest In Acquiring RJ Barrett From Knicks

Jazz Now Have Strong Interest In Acquiring RJ Barrett From Knicks - RealGM Wiretap

basketball.realgm.com

Him 2 unprotected, 3 protect. Done

 

[NUMBERICA]

I said they should try never said it would happen.

I should try to see if 1994 Pamela Anderson will go out with me.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think RJ is a hard worker and NYK's roster is really bad for how he plays, or how he tries to play...I just don't see great tools or indicators that I like in young prospects. He's awful at finishing at the rim, isn't a defensive playmaker, and has really bad touch all around. To me he comes off as a fake good athlete. He looks the part, but he's really bad at everything athleticism should help him with. His game is not smooth at all which puts him in a bad predicament because he can't gain advantages with his athleticism or craftiness. The best thing I can say about him is that he plays really hard and he's a decent passer, but he simply hasn't been very good and I don't see a lot of potential in him becoming a star or transitioning to a strong role player. It's not a Wiggins/Brown situation where he has a ton of tools but just needs more polish...he's just not that talented from what I've seen.

If NYK is valuing him at 1-2 draft picks that's one thing, but If I had to guess I bet they're valuing him closer to 3 picks, maybe more. I don't think the question 3 vs 2 with RJ. I think it's more like 3+Quickley vs 1+RJ. I think there are many in Knicks land that think RJ is an elite prospect on a rookie deal, some people here would agree with that. You're not getting RJ for the price of one 1st. I think the opportunity cost is MUCH higher.

If he ends up in the deal it’s because the cost (in terms of picks) was mid/low.

As far as his game… I’m not sure where he goes but he is good laterally and is strong like bull. I think he’s not a great run jump athlete but he’s got a big enough frame to toggle between both forward spots. His jumper gets consistent and he’s a borderline AS on the wing. Again the comp is like Harrison Barnes… Barnes had some hops but hardly used it. Barrett has more ball skills… Barnes obviously better shooter now.

He may not get there but he’s worth a gamble assuming the cost is like 1.5 unprotected picks in the deal.if his cost is higher you don’t have to worry cuz he won’t be in the deal.

 

[Release the Kraken]

Jazz Now Have Strong Interest In Acquiring RJ Barrett From Knicks

Jazz Now Have Strong Interest In Acquiring RJ Barrett From Knicks - RealGM Wiretap

basketball.realgm.com

Him 2 unprotected, 3 protect. Done

Good, maybe this deal comes off before the deadline after all! I figure Reddish, IQ and Toppin round out the deal. Grimes is off the table and Rose is not going to let us bend em over regardless how many mysterious suitors we pretend to have.

Anybody who thinks we don’t have any skin in this game is insane! We either complete the rebuild or we go on the Mitchell goodbye tour where we try to look good to maintain his value with a buzzsaw schedule and a stacked West.