Jazz and Knicks discussing Donovan Mitchell trade per Shams Charania and Tony Jones

[Thee Jazz Fan]

For sure. They should attach a pick or two and try to get Westbrook from the Lakers then start Toppin.

Why would the Lakers to that??

 

[KqWIN]

I keep going back and forth on who is winning this waiting game. Do the Jazz really want to go to camp with Don? Do the Knicks want to go to camp without him? I see the pressure from both sides to get it done. One thing I haven't considered as much is Don. We know he doesn't want to be the bad guy and publicly force his way out....if he and his team were going to force a trade to happen quicker, he and his team would probably be telling the Knicks to just get the damn deal done. If he's in camp with the Jazz it puts him in a very awkward situation where he doesn't want to be here and he also doesn't want to let it known he'd rather be on the Knicks.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Is a team of Mike Conley, Evan Fournier, RJ Barrett, Obi Toppin, Vando.... too good to tank?

Assuming we move Bogey, Bev, and maybe Beasley/JC to the Lakers.

I kid. I think.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I keep going back and forth on who is winning this waiting game. Do the Jazz really want to go to camp with Don? Do the Knicks want to go to camp without him? I see the pressure from both sides to get it done. One thing I haven't considered as much is Don. We know he doesn't want to be the bad guy and publicly force his way out....if he and his team were going to force a trade to happen quicker, he and his team would probably be telling the Knicks to just get the damn deal done. If he's in camp with the Jazz it puts him in a very awkward situation where he doesn't want to be here and he also doesn't want to let it known he'd rather be on the Knicks.

Who will have more scrutiny? Who is more comfortable being uncomfortable? Who would it hurt more to have a rocky start due to unresolved business?

Even if Don says on camera he wants to go to the Knicks I don't think it tips the scales much. We know he won't be here beyond his deal.

This last offer imo was kind of like the appetizer to the real offer Knicks are hoping we accept... if they throw that offer out and its rejected then I think both teams will bear down for a fight. This still feels like the first round where they are feeling each other out.

 

[KqWIN]

The whole... "they have to pay them" argument is kinda silly. Yeah... you can only take on so much bad money for picks... we will have infinity cap space next couple years. Lock one of these dudes up. I don't think it takes a full max which would be 5/188. I think you can do it at 5/150-160M. It will look like a damn steal when the cap goes up by 50%... which is when guys like Grimes, Toppin, and IQ will hit FA and get properly paid.

We could also wait him out this year and match an offer later. I'd want to know what his demands were... I don't think full max is necessary.

Meh...I think it's a real argument. I think he has a season similar to how his second half was last year. I don't want to be on the bill for it when that happens. He put up crazy counting stats but wasn't a good player. It may be impossible to give out a bad contract at this time with the cap rising (similar to the Hayward situation), so that's a good point.

This is especially the case if we're getting Barrett instead of other picks/prospects. If Barrett was coming over as neutral-ish value that would be one thing, but if NYK is putting him on the table they're going to do so thinking he's a premium prospect. I'd rather just stay away from Barrett and get the other stuff instead. My feeling is that the opportunity cost is too high to get him back in a trade.

 

[KqWIN]

Who will have more scrutiny? Who is more comfortable being uncomfortable? Who would it hurt more to have a rocky start due to unresolved business?

Even if Don says on camera he wants to go to the Knicks I don't think it tips the scales much. We know he won't be here beyond his deal.

This last offer imo was kind of like the appetizer to the real offer Knicks are hoping we accept... if they throw that offer out and its rejected then I think both teams will bear down for a fight. This still feels like the first round where they are feeling each other out.

I don't think Don will ever say to a camera that he wants out or wants to go to the Knicks. He will stay silent and if he wants to force the trade, I think he would prefer that the Knicks give up a little bit more instead of publicly pressuring the Jazz and becoming hated.

The Knicks are going to get **** on by their local/national media until it doesn't get done. For the longest time I believed that would give us the edge in the waiting game. But I have to say, it's also really hard for the Jazz to bluff that they're ok with running it back with Don and no Center. The schedule made it obvious that no one really believes the Jazz are going to have Mitchell on the team next year.

Things don't truly get uncomfortable until camp comes...but with 3 parties experiencing discomfort (NYK, UTA, Mitchell), I'm thinking it's tilted in our favor because Don will put more pressure on the Knicks than he will the Jazz to avoid being the bad guy.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Meh...I think it's a real argument. I think he has a season similar to how his second half was last year. I don't want to be on the bill for it when that happens. He put up crazy counting stats but wasn't a good player. It may be impossible to give out a bad contract at this time with the cap rising (similar to the Hayward situation), so that's a good point.

This is especially the case if we're getting Barrett instead of other picks/prospects. If Barrett was coming over as neutral-ish value that would be one thing, but if NYK is putting him on the table they're going to do so thinking he's a premium prospect. I'd rather just stay away from Barrett and get the other stuff instead. My feeling is that the opportunity cost is too high to get him back in a trade.

I think it is still kind of posturing by one side or the other. We want 4 unprotected picks and they are like "how about 2?". We might counter with 2 unprotected and RJ and that might be preferable for them. He's going to get marginalized on that roster.

The danger for them is they want to make a second move. It's easier to do that with fluid assets... they also just extended Randle and it turned out horribly. I wonder what RJ could do on a team with more spacing and the guy is 21. I don't think he is a finished product at all.

Normally with guys like RJ where they are counting stats guys the fan base kinda hates em... I am seeing primarily panic from Knicks at moving RJ instead of picks. I also think there are diminishing returns on picks and cap space if you have too much at one time.

 

[framer]

Are we entirely certain that Don actually WANTS New York? I mean I think his shoe company wants him there, probably his Mom too. I'd bet if he had a choice he would be in Miami. There are probably a few other teams he might like better.

I'm fairly certain he will not be on a better team if he spends the rest of his career in New York than what he already had here in Utah.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don't think Don will ever say to a camera that he wants out or wants to go to the Knicks. He will stay silent and if he wants to force the trade, I think he would prefer that the Knicks give up a little bit more instead of publicly pressuring the Jazz and becoming hated.

I was being dramatic with the strongest demand possible.

The Knicks are going to get **** on by their local/national media until it doesn't get done. For the longest time I believed that would give us the edge in the waiting game. But I have to say, it's also really hard for the Jazz to bluff that they're ok with running it back with Don and no Center. The schedule made it obvious that no one really believes the Jazz are going to have Mitchell on the team next year.

The schedule made it apparent that people thought KD was getting moved. They guessing like all of us. Its hard to bluff especially once we trade Bogey and Bev plus some stuff to the Lakers.

Things don't truly get uncomfortable until camp comes...but with 3 parties experiencing discomfort (NYK, UTA, Mitchell), I'm thinking it's tilted in our favor because Don will put more pressure on the Knicks than he will the Jazz to avoid being the bad guy.

I think the discomfort has more consequences for them than us... so unless they rise above it and play well coming out of the gate... I think it will help us. Those guys will all have in the back of their heads that they are getting traded for Don and it likely has some effect.

 

[KqWIN]

I think it is still kind of posturing by one side or the other. We want 4 unprotected picks and they are like "how about 2?". We might counter with 2 unprotected and RJ and that might be preferable for them. He's going to get marginalized on that roster.

The danger for them is they want to make a second move. It's easier to do that with fluid assets... they also just extended Randle and it turned out horribly. I wonder what RJ could do on a team with more spacing and the guy is 21. I don't think he is a finished product at all.

Normally with guys like RJ where they are counting stats guys the fan base kinda hates em... I am seeing primarily panic from Knicks at moving RJ instead of picks. I also think there are diminishing returns on picks and cap space if you have too much at one time.

You know me....I think picks are highly overrated in this deals, but I also think RJ is also overrated and I think NYK are likely to want to hold onto him extra tight. I don't think he's a finished product, but I think the Knicks are probably looking at RJ like a 21 year old who averaged 25/6/4 after the break last year. Why wouldn't they...it's true. When you look at it that way he's a young, budding star player. But me personally I'm still questioning if RJ is a starting level player at all. He's far from a finished product, but what people are hoping/expecting him to become is very different from how I see it.

 

[KqWIN]

I was being dramatic with the strongest demand possible.


The schedule made it apparent that people thought KD was getting moved. They guessing like all of us. Its hard to bluff especially once we trade Bogey and Bev plus some stuff to the Lakers.


I think the discomfort has more consequences for them than us... so unless they rise above it and play well coming out of the gate... I think it will help us. Those guys will all have in the back of their heads that they are getting traded for Don and it likely has some effect.

Yeah I'm thinking the Jazz have an edge here too. I also think that there's less downside potential for the Jazz. What I mean by that is that it's unlikely the Knicks go lower than whatever they're at....and if they do it can't be very significant. There might not be a good chance the Jazz find a better offer or do something like a Myles Turner trade (anything that means the Knicks don't get Mitchell)....but if that happens it is a true catastrophe for the Knicks. They would get clowned on so badly if they let Mitchell slip. If they cave in and pay a little bit extra for Mitchell, they'd still get praised for it.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

You know me....I think picks are highly overrated in this deals, but I also think RJ is also overrated and I think NYK are likely to want to hold onto him extra tight. I don't think he's a finished product, but I think the Knicks are probably looking at RJ like a 21 year old who averaged 25/6/4 after the break last year. Why wouldn't they...it's true. When you look at it that way he's a young, budding star player. But me personally I'm still questioning if RJ is a starting level player at all. He's far from a finished product, but what people are hoping/expecting him to become is very different from how I see it.

I don't love him... but he's the right player type that if he does do the finish work you are on to something pretty great. He seems like a very hard worker... so I think he will realize something close to his ceiling (whatever that is). If Knicks gave us an option of 2 unprotected and RJ (plus stuff) or 4 unprotected picks... I'd take 4 I think. They might see the two unprotected picks as a better trade asset than RJ so they don't offer us that.

If it is 2 unprotected picks and RJ or 3 unprotected picks and no RJ... I'd take RJ for sure. He's worth 1.5 unprotected picks I guess. lolz

Can we just end this thing already... we know Ainge will get like 80-90% of what he wants and we know the Knicks want Don... just for the love of everything holy end it.