Jazz and Knicks discussing Donovan Mitchell trade per Shams Charania and Tony Jones

[stitches]

I think the Knicks/Rose are pretty headstrong about not bowing to Ainge's demands. I think they are going to take a risk on this one and wait it out.

I think that lowball offer might be the offer. Maybe they add in Grimes, but I doubt they add in more unprotected picks.

The Knicks are playing with fire if they really really want Mitchell... This reported offer is very close and IMO it's beat by some of the offers other teams can offer. Here are some examples:

Do you like Herro more than Toppin for example? Do you like the Heat 27 and 29 picks more than 3-4 of Knick's random heavily protected picks?

Do you like Charlottes young players more than NYKs? Do you value CHA's 27 and 29 picks higher than 3 or 4 of NYK's trash 1sts?

Do you like Deni Avdija, Corey Kispert, Johnny Davis + a few 1sts and swaps more than NYK's offer?

Do you like Suggs and 3 unprotected +1 protected better than Toppin and 2 unprotected + 3 protected?

Some of those I probably would like better than NYK's current offer and I can see why the Jazz would prefer those too.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

The Knicks are playing with fire if they really really want Mitchell... This reported offer is very close and IMO it's beat by some of the offers other teams can offer. Here are some examples:

Do you like Herro more than Toppin for example? Do you like the Heat 27 and 29 picks more than 3-4 of Knick's random heavily protected picks?

Do you like Charlottes young players more than NYKs? Do you value CHA's 27 and 29 picks higher than 3 or 4 of NYK's trash 1sts?

Do you like Deni Avdija, Corey Kispert, Johnny Davis + a few 1sts and swaps more than NYK's offer?

Do you like Suggs and 3 unprotected +1 protected better than Toppin and 2 unprotected + 3 protected?

Some of those I probably would like better than NYK's current offer and I can see why the Jazz would prefer those too.

Those are all those team's maximum offers, which we have no idea if anyone is even offering their max offer for Mitchell.

Given how ****** the NYK offer just was, I'm guessing they arent as of yet.

What's the lacking ingredient for all these teams?

None of them have that much reason for urgency. Maybe the Wizards, but that's about the only one.

Plus they all have to contend with the fact that Mitchell is heavily linked to NYK, so they have to be willing to give their best offer for Mitchell and have a 3 year plan to convince him to stay despite being asset depleted after the Mitchell trade.

Things can change on the fly, which is the risk. But it's not like Utah isnt going to check in and call NYK before they make a deal if they are getting these offers. NYK will have a chance to match.

 

[homeytennis]

Why give the Knicks a chance to match? If the Jazz get a better deal eff the Knicks. Let them read about it on the interwebs.

 

[Park Bites]

This is the way that I am looking at this

1st - Fournier is an ok player but not on a very good contract. I am pretty sure that he is the one that we will take. We might be able to flip him for a couple of seconds to a competitor that needs bench scoring. His contract is awful. That in itself is worth compensation. I get that they like Rose and he is a good fit and on an expiring contract.

2nd - They have Barrett, Toppin, Grimes, Quickley, and Reddish as young players that need to be added. I understand that the Jazz are not going to get all of those. I would be pushing for Quickley to be traded as the PG is one of their deepest positions. For me, it is either quickley or Grimes. I understand that thibs loves Grimes but he is the better of the 2 in my opinion so if you keep one there needs to be compensation. I could see that they want to pair Barrett with Mitchell so that means compensation. Toppins seems to be the given and Reddish is never mentioned. He is a decent defender off the bench for them at a valuable position. Toppin seems to be a given so Toppin and Quickley have to be added in and they need to give compensation for not going after Grimes and Barrett.

3rd - I hear that the Knicks don't like the pairing of Brunson, Mitchell, Barrett, and Randle. they are all ball-dominant, primarily Randle. That is not the Jazz concern. He is on an awful contract and they are going to have a hard time moving him. this is going probably need compensation for them to move Randle. Again not the Jazz problem that they gave such an awful contract.

4th - Correct me if I am wrong but the rumors seem to be that the NBA is going to do away with the one-and-done rule. Since CBA expires in 2024 I am guessing that it would affect the 2025 draft class. If this is true that the 2025 class with have the last class of one and done and the high school seniors that would be a class that will have a lot of value and I would value unprotected picks in that class.

all this said I would say picks in 23/25/27 unprotected and 2 of their other picks and 4 seconds with Fournier, Toppin, and Quickley.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The Knicks are playing with fire if they really really want Mitchell... This reported offer is very close and IMO it's beat by some of the offers other teams can offer. Here are some examples:

Do you like Herro more than Toppin for example? Do you like the Heat 27 and 29 picks more than 3-4 of Knick's random heavily protected picks?

Do you like Charlottes young players more than NYKs? Do you value CHA's 27 and 29 picks higher than 3 or 4 of NYK's trash 1sts?

Do you like Deni Avdija, Corey Kispert, Johnny Davis + a few 1sts and swaps more than NYK's offer?

Do you like Suggs and 3 unprotected +1 protected better than Toppin and 2 unprotected + 3 protected?

Some of those I probably would like better than NYK's current offer and I can see why the Jazz would prefer those too.

I’ve long been a fan of the Heat offer depending on how much Herro wants in extension. They can give 23/27/29… either with some language around the pick they owe to OKC or by changing protections. They’d give up swaps too… plus Jovic, Yurtseven, maybe Strus to use in another deal.

Raps could come with a strong offer too.

Washington and Charlotte offers can improve based on how the puck swaps go… because they have some future obligations you might be able to ring out some protection language and swaps that are more than we might think.

If we start the season some of these teams start well and decide to push some chips into the middle (Orlando specifically)…

I think it would be a pretty big risk losing the star that wants to be there, is young, and is very likely to stay long term. Risk that over 1 extra unprotected pick (if they came with the current offer and it’s 6 first and 3 unprotected are we holding our noses?). They also burn up a season to get a better 2023 pick to use in the deal.

Don’t get me wrong… waiting a year is really risky for us too… it’s just different because every “risk” has some good unintended consequences. Don gets hurt and we suck… we get a high pick and still can decide to keep him or
Move him… he plays really well and we are a 7/8 seed… we effed up our pick… but Dons value would be higher and we showed we could be solid and would have picks and space to build around him.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Why give the Knicks a chance to match? If the Jazz get a better deal eff the Knicks. Let them read about it on the interwebs.

You go back to them but it’s not a match at that point… it’s beat this by 15% before we hang up the phone and you get fired.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

This is the way that I am looking at this

1st - Fournier is an ok player but not on a very good contract. I am pretty sure that he is the one that we will take. We might be able to flip him for a couple of seconds to a competitor that needs bench scoring. His contract is awful. That in itself is worth compensation. I get that they like Rose and he is a good fit and on an expiring contract.

2nd - They have Barrett, Toppin, Grimes, Quickley, and Reddish as young players that need to be added. I understand that the Jazz are not going to get all of those. I would be pushing for Quickley to be traded as the PG is one of their deepest positions. For me, it is either quickley or Grimes. I understand that thibs loves Grimes but he is the better of the 2 in my opinion so if you keep one there needs to be compensation. I could see that they want to pair Barrett with Mitchell so that means compensation. Toppins seems to be the given and Reddish is never mentioned. He is a decent defender off the bench for them at a valuable position. Toppin seems to be a given so Toppin and Quickley have to be added in and they need to give compensation for not going after Grimes and Barrett.

3rd - I hear that the Knicks don't like the pairing of Brunson, Mitchell, Barrett, and Randle. they are all ball-dominant, primarily Randle. That is not the Jazz concern. He is on an awful contract and they are going to have a hard time moving him. this is going probably need compensation for them to move Randle. Again not the Jazz problem that they gave such an awful contract.

4th - Correct me if I am wrong but the rumors seem to be that the NBA is going to do away with the one-and-done rule. Since CBA expires in 2024 I am guessing that it would affect the 2025 draft class. If this is true that the 2025 class with have the last class of one and done and the high school seniors that would be a class that will have a lot of value and I would value unprotected picks in that class.

all this said I would say picks in 23/25/27 unprotected and 2 of their other picks and 4 seconds with Fournier, Toppin, and Quickley.

I honestly think that’s where the Knicks would like to settle… but aren’t putting the deal out there yet. They have 2-3 weeks to work it out. I think the Jazz are also asking more than that right now… so still some work to do.

 

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Those are all those team's maximum offers, which we have no idea if anyone is even offering their max offer for Mitchell.

Given how ****** the NYK offer just was, I'm guessing they arent as of yet.

What's the lacking ingredient for all these teams?

None of them have that much reason for urgency. Maybe the Wizards, but that's about the only one.

Plus they all have to contend with the fact that Mitchell is heavily linked to NYK, so they have to be willing to give their best offer for Mitchell and have a 3 year plan to convince him to stay despite being asset depleted after the Mitchell trade.

Things can change on the fly, which is the risk. But it's not like Utah isnt going to check in and call NYK before they make a deal if they are getting these offers. NYK will have a chance to match.

There are reports the Jazz like some of the other offers they've received from other teams. Now, this very likely is just a way to push the Knicks into offering more, but who knows - maybe it's both - they like some of them and they are still trying to squeeze the Knicks? We wouldn't have considered MIN being desperate, but we don't know the internal forces with those teams and what conversations are happening. MIA for example IMO is on the verge and don't have much time remaining with Butler at super high level. Maybe they are desperate to give the absolute best. Other teams have been **** for so long. WAS IMO has to be real desperate after giving Beal that contract. They must be trying to compete now, rather than later with Beal on the verge of entering his 30s. We also never know the surprising team that will appear out of nowhere and offer tons...

 

[homeytennis]

You go back to them but it’s not a match at that point… it’s beat this by 15% before we hang up the phone and you get fired.

I get that but a person is out car shopping and one of the salesmen really pi$$es you off. You go across the street and get a better or equal deal. Are you going back to churlish dealer 1? Yeah you might save a few bucks but it would involve enriching the person you did not like. The Knicks are car salesman No. 1.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Charlotte's offer could be solid/great if they are willing to put in the 27/29 unprotected picks. They could do swaps in 23/25, unprotected 27/29, plus the Denver pick they own. If we got PJ Washington he's a guy we could spin to another team for a protected first.

Hayward can be spun off to Lakers... or you get Rozier and trade him later.

They might not be willing to go that far on picks but this narrative of "NY bidding against themselves" is trash.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I get that but a person is out car shopping and one of the salesmen really pi$$es you off. You go across the street and get a better or equal deal. Are you going back to churlish dealer 1? Yeah you might save a few bucks but it would involve enriching the person you did not like. The Knicks are car salesman No. 1.

I don't think they have pissed us off... just confidently low balling us. Nothing would make me happier then to see them give 25-33% more than their "best" offer and make them beg to do it.

I'd love to go back to the salesmen in that case and say "beat it by 15% before I can walk to the door cuz I ain't coming back".

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Also if

There are reports the Jazz like some of the other offers they've received from other teams. Now, this very likely is just a way to push the Knicks into offering more, but who knows - maybe it's both - they like some of them and they are still trying to squeeze the Knicks? We wouldn't have considered MIN being desperate, but we don't know the internal forces with those teams and what conversations are happening. MIA for example IMO is on the verge and don't have much time remaining with Butler at super high level. Maybe they are desperate to give the absolute best. Other teams have been **** for so long. WAS IMO has to be real desperate after giving Beal that contract. They must be trying to compete now, rather than later with Beal on the verge of entering his 30s. We also never know the surprising team that will appear out of nowhere and offer tons...

Sure, hindsight is 20/20 on the Minnesota deal. I didnt expect it to happen either, but it makes sense. The Wolves have the talent on paper to be a contender.

None of the teams you listed has the talent on paper post-Mitchell trade to be a contender.

Also I dont think a team like Washington is that desperate to be a contender. I think they are a team that is fine being were they are and I dont see them going all in for a Donovan Mitchell, a guy who would 100% leave in 3 years.

 

[Jingled]

IDK… I think it’s kinda close-ish. Like add 1 more unprotected pick and it closes… or they can add Grimes. Swap one protected for an unprotected and add Quickley (and maybe we push for Rose instead of Fournier to clear the cap).

I don’t think Ainge honestly thinks his initial ask will be met. He was going for the insane package. If you don’t ask you’ll never know. I think he gets a little more earnest here as we get closer to September 6th when we can execute some other good deals.

3 unprotected picks
2 other picks
1 swap

Either Toppin/Quickley or Grimes. If they want to put RJ in the deal I’ll do 2 unprotected picks and 2 protected picks.

I sure hope so. I really want to avoid all the drama of Donovan still being here when the season starts.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Also if

Sure, hindsight is 20/20 on the Minnesota deal. I didnt expect it to happen either, but it makes sense. The Wolves have the talent on paper to be a contender.

None of the teams you listed has the talent on paper post-Mitchell trade to be a contender.

Also I dont think a team like Washington is that desperate to be a contender. I think they are a team that is fine being were they are and I dont see them going all in for a Donovan Mitchell, a guy who would 100% leave in 3 years.

The Raps are the team to watch. I think the Hornets could get wild too... I get the feeling they are in "please Lamelo" mode and will surely take a step back with Bridges likely done for the year or forever.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

The Raps are the team to watch. I think the Hornets could get wild too... I get the feeling they are in "please Lamelo" mode and will surely take a step back with Bridges likely done for the year or forever.

Sure, the Raptors, but why the **** do we want a Raptors package over what New York just offered? Is there 100% best offer even better than what New York has on the table?

The Knicks have a valid point that there low offer is better than most team's offers (unless these sad franchises are willing to go 100% in, which they arent).

I think we are living in fantasy land to think we are actually going to deal with another team that isn't New York. This is just a staring contest.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

The only two teams who can really compete with the Knicks are the Wizards/Kings/Magic.

1. Kings have a good enough team to be excited about that trading for Donovan would be shortsighted.
2. The Magic are a real threat IMO. Depending on how much Ainge likes Suggs they could be a team that could put up a legitimate offer. Do they really want to make that kind of move during year 1 of Banchero though?
3. Wizards could get desperate and just want to try something drastic.

Dont see anyone else being legitimate unless the Thunder are dramatically better than anyone thinks and they decide they want Donovan Mitchell next to Shai.

 

[stitches]

Why give the Knicks a chance to match? If the Jazz get a better deal eff the Knicks. Let them read about it on the interwebs.

Why wouldn't you? Not to match - to beat it? Do you want the best offer or do you want the Knicks to not get Mitchell? I could care less where Mitchell goes once he's gone.

 

[stitches]

The only two teams who can really compete with the Knicks are the Wizards/Kings/Magic.

1. Kings have a good enough team to be excited about that trading for Donovan would be shortsighted.
2. The Magic are a real threat IMO. Depending on how much Ainge likes Suggs they could be a team that could put up a legitimate offer. Do they really want to make that kind of move during year 1 of Banchero though?
3. Wizards could get desperate and just want to try something drastic.

Dont see anyone else being legitimate unless the Thunder are dramatically better than anyone thinks and they decide they want Donovan Mitchell next to Shai.

NOP can too. OKC... but not sure they are close enough to be willing to switch to win-now mode. I guess if Chet looks like a dominant force for the first half of the season... they might offer tons at the deadline...

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

NOP can too. OKC... but not sure they are close enough to be willing to switch to win-now mode. I guess if Chet looks like a dominant force for the first half of the season... they might offer tons at the deadline...

Why on Earth would NOP go all in on Mitchell when they have McCollum?

Not saying DM isnt an upgrade over CJ, but it's on the margins and the cost would be through the roof.

Makes no sense.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

NOP can too. OKC... but not sure they are close enough to be willing to switch to win-now mode. I guess if Chet looks like a dominant force for the first half of the season... they might offer tons at the deadline...

Wouldn't be at the deadline, would be after the season is over. Don't think Mitchell being dealt during the season is likely. Think it's even before camp or at teh end of the year.

Only team he is getting dealt to in-season is the Knicks.