Jazz and Knicks discussing Donovan Mitchell trade per Shams Charania and Tony Jones

[TheStormofWar]

this was a reaction to "The only thing I want to use the cavs for is to force NY to gut themselves. That’s it."

I know. Just reiterating my own point on that.

 

[SolenTent]

i'd just hope there would be a better offfer than that cavs offer posted earlier. these assets dont do much to jumpstart a rebuild other than clearing up some space on the captable (which is the last thing the jazz should worry about)

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Sexton (assuming a 4/80M deal) + Okoro + Agbaji + Windler for Mitchell works for both sides salary cap wise.

Add in their 25/27/29 unprotected 1sts with a pick swap in 28 or something like that.

That is enough to make the Knicks sweat at the very least.

Can also swap 2023 with the Minny pick or Philly pick if it doesn't convey to Indiana. In that case its a lotto pick so you get a sliver of upside there.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

A cleveland package puts pressure on a couple fronts. Don doesn't want to go there over NY... so he tells NY yall better not get outbid here... its a legit offer so NY isn't bidding against themselves like their fanbase thinks.

 

[TheStormofWar]

i'd just hope there would be a better offfer than that cavs offer posted earlier. these assets dont do much to jumpstart a rebuild other than clearing up some space on the captable (which is the last thing the jazz should worry about)

They can supply three UNPs, four swaps, and some young talent.

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

If the Cavs wanted to put the right package together, then f*** New York. Most Cavs fans are all but drooling at the possibility of a SpidaLand backcourt and they can pull the picks. The just can convey their '23 pick due to an Indy trade, but that will either convey or convert to seconds.

I’ve adopted Ainge’s attitude dealing with trades. NY can give the best package that’s what I want and due to the fact they trying to pull the big market vs small market on utah, I want them to pay up their *** to get their prize and spend the next ten years regretting that decision and cursing Ainge’s name!!

 

[TheStormofWar]

I’ve adopted Ainge’s attitude dealing with trades. NY can give the best package that’s what I want and due to the fact they trying to pull the big market vs small market on utah, I want them to pay up their *** to get their prize and spend the next ten years regretting that decision and cursing Ainge’s name!!

While I love that sentiment, timelines do affect decisions. It's better if Don's out of Utah when the season starts, if for no other reason than avoiding adversely affecting our ping pong balls.

 

[KqWIN]

I think you are greatly overrating Barnes in his age 21 season versus RJ. RJ showed an ability to be a good player offball his second year. May have been a little fluky but when exactly was Barnes creating and getting a shot whenever he wanted in GS. How effective was he as a role player his age 21 season?


The midrange is horrible. The finishing is bad in a vacuum. Then you consider the frequency with which he’s getting there… the fact that Robinson shared the flier with him for half his minutes… and Robinson is the player in the nba that is most anchored to the rim in the league. He played like 70% of his minutes with Randle… who is not a guy who helps his teammates or spaces the floor.

Not sure where you get the idea that guys can’t improve at finishing at the rim but they can/have in the past. Jaylen Brown did… also an iffy shooter who turned into a good shooter. Has a more limited handle than Barrett and less creation ability. Significantly better from midrange.


The point of 1.5 Unprotected picks being his value is … we want 4 unprotected Knicks picks in the deal… they want to do 2 to allow maximum flexibility for their next deal… maybe Danny settles for 3 but maybe RJ is the only way to make up that delta. They might do better selling RJ to a third team but what would they get? I’m asking honestly and not in a rhetorical fashion.

So he represents the Knicks saving two unprotected picks or he becomes the bargaining chip that allows Knicks to sell their fans (yeah we gave up 4 but only other way to do it was trade RJ… and y’all freaked out about that).

So it’s kind of like this… would you rather have RJ or 1 unprotected pick, 1 protected pick, and Grimes. I’d rather have the latter and the Knicks might too but it’s a flexible way to work a deal that might fit the needs of both teams. If RJ was a consistent 3 point shooter… a more consistent defender (he’s been solid mostly), then he’d be completely off the table. If he figures those things out and gets a shade better at the rim he’s a super valuable two way wing who is a good second or third scorer on a contender… the toughest guy to get in the league is that player type… it’s worth the gamble.

Marc Jackson would always call post ups for Barnes and let him "go to work". It wasn't amazing, but you could see how he would be a versatile 3 level scorer. There was a foundation there that you could feasibly see working. Barrett otoh, I guess you could say there's a foundation there attacking the hoop and maybe as a shooter, but he is also among the worst at the league at finishing in the paint. Maybe I'm watching the wrong games, but when you watch him play it doesn't look like he's getting to the hoop at will. It's not pretty and it's clear he's not a great athlete. It really does look like he's forcing garbage up. There are so many attempts that have no chance, but he just shoots anyways. I also think Barrett is really bad on defense despite having some reputation there. There's a reason why Thibs had Fournier guard the tougher matchups.

Anyways...it doesn't really matter. Point is, I don't think the decision to include RJ vs not include RJ is what you're making it out to me. I think the Jazz would lose significantly more picks/players if they choose to have Barrett. I am happy to take Barrett for the right price, but I think his price is more like a young budding superstar.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

They can supply three UNPs, four swaps, and some young talent.

And I know the future looks bright but a Mobley or Garland injury or Don not staying there... and the picks have some value.

 

[TheStormofWar]

And I know the future looks bright but a Mobley or Garland injury or Don not staying there... and the picks have some value.

Pretty much. That's also why a Lakers trade involving their 27/29 picks would be sex. Lebron might be a Basketball God, but dude isn't playing forever and they are otherwise screwed for young talent. Yes, they can get FAs, but as we've seen, that's hardly surefire.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I admire y'alls optimism.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Marc Jackson would always call post ups for Barnes and let him "go to work". It wasn't amazing, but you could see how he would be a versatile 3 level scorer. There was a foundation there that you could feasibly see working. Barrett otoh, I guess you could say there's a foundation there attacking the hoop and maybe as a shooter, but he is also among the worst at the league at finishing in the paint. Maybe I'm watching the wrong games, but when you watch him play it doesn't look like he's getting to the hoop at will. It's not pretty and it's clear he's not a great athlete. It really does look like he's forcing garbage up. There are so many attempts that have no chance, but he just shoots anyways. I also think Barrett is really bad on defense despite having some reputation there. There's a reason why Thibs had Fournier guard the tougher matchups.

The numbers on Barnes don't really support what you are saying. He wasn't taking many shots at all and wasn't good in the midrange... even if RJ is a poor finisher at the rim he is getting there with great frequency and its a 60% shot and not a 40% shot... also allows him to get more fouls. I think there is clearly a foundation there of something that could be good. I think defense is comparable at age 21 too.

I think his percentages are ugly but a good offensive coach helps him turn one bad rim or floater range shot into a kick out. He turns one long or mid range jumper into a three... and it doesn't make him a superstar... but he becomes pretty solid with some mild improvement as a shot maker. I just think if you took Barnes or Brown at RJ's age and said go create and increase your volume that it might not look a whole lot different.

Anyways...it doesn't really matter. Point is, I don't think the decision to include RJ vs not include RJ is what you're making it out to me. I think the Jazz would lose significantly more picks/players if they choose to have Barrett. I am happy to take Barrett for the right price, but I think his price is more like a young budding superstar.

If those picks and players are really on the table then we won't choose RJ over them. Its quite simple. Ainge ain't falling for some bait and switch. If that's the price we don't do it... full stop. I can see a world where that isn't the price... and that's the only world we would do it imo.

The example packages I'd use are:

Non-RJ
3 unprotected picks from Knicks 23/25/27 and 3 protected picks they own... plus Toppin/IQ or Grimes/McBride (Knicks choice)


RJ package
2 unprotected picks 23/28 (allows them to make their second move), 2 protected picks plus IQ or Toppin (Knicks choice).

- salary filler is the same in both so Rose/Fournier... whatevs

So the RJ cost to us one unprotected pick, 1 protected pick and one of IQ or Toppin. It opens up the ability for the Knicks to move 24/26/30 for a second big trade... in scenario #1 they would have to use RJ and their 2029 pick to get a blockbuster done.

Do the Jazz prefer to get package #1 or #2?
Do the Knicks prefer to trade package #1 or #2?