George
Banned
Holy ****, this. I just ****ing love when I see posts along the lines of "I could pick a better coaching staff and FO from several posters here on Jazzfanz".
Get ****ing real.
-George
Jazz history, Status Quo and Social Media
- Thread starter Lion's Roar
- Start date
Holy ****, this. I just ****ing love when I see posts along the lines of "I could pick a better coaching staff and FO from several posters here on Jazzfanz".
Get ****ing real.
-George
I agree that, in many circumstances, more minutes will mean improved development. I agree this is likely true for Favors and Kanter at this time.
I have not seen enough games to pass judgement on your second paragraph. I know I was disappointed in the Bulls game when, after having a very good 3rd quarter, Jefferson was not rested at the beginning of the fourth. So, my inclination based on that, and a handful of other, observations would be that Corbin has bought into the "hot hand" theory, and uses it instead of a good rotation. That could certainly account for keeping veterans in.
GVC
Well-Known Member
He'll keep the veterans in whenever he has the opportunity/excuse to do so. We all see that. Corbin has also shown a willingness on occasion to go with Gordo, Favors and, more recently (largely due to injuries), Burks down the stretch. What Corbin has not done to this point is cut Al's minutes in favor of Kanter. With that said, and without the data to corroborate, Kanter does seem to play better in the first half than the second, and Al seems to play better in the second half than the first.
I agree there is a tradeoff, but I don't think there is much real secrecy involved. That was not my point.
They knew Williams' talent was there, but I don't think they expected they would be trading him. Going back further, Kirilenko playing almost 2900 minutes in his third year didn't really give the Jazz a great idea of his ceiling.
Playing someone more or fewer minutes will not necessarily be more revealing, if at the end of the process they are still early 20s.
GVC
Well-Known Member
And? All else equal, more information is going to be at least as good as less information. At some point the expected payoff of that information is going to exceed that of the payoff of making the players earn the time/learn from the sideline. Yes, fans have a tendency to overrate their young players, and are especially impatient with their lack of playing time when subjected to watching a perpetual rehash of a treadmill team, but from where I sit, Kanter and Favors are playing at a level that demands more time and responsibility (I don't have an issue with Burks' and Gordo's PT or role. I actually think Gordo's best role is as leader of the second team, instead of parked in the corner a la Marvin).
It's not time to freak out though; this summer will reveal a lot. For now, however, watching 5 starters, at least 4 of whom are not under contract for next season, play sleep/lazy dump-it-in-and-stand-around ball is not going to entertain me in the least. It won't lead to any meaningful playoff experience for the youngs either.
vegas
Well-Known Member
Great thread. Both sides posting valid arguments with supporting information, instead of name calling and opinion. Lots of posts deserve rep here.
Just for comparison:
This is all over the board, so I would like to hear thoughts. It is very clear that management really liked Dwill. Brewer seems to have earned his minutes, CJ also earned them after his best season in his 3rd yr and jumped to 22 mpg in yr #4. Millsap was a guy who worked his way up as well.
If I had to pick a theme it would be that historically guys haven't got mins until at least 21 yrs old. It appears that Favors is the exception here to an extent. If minutes say what the franchise believes about the C4, Hayward is a keeper (a bit more than a rotation player), and the other 3 look promising with Favors being the furthest along (yet not progressing much).
I would like to see a slow deliberate transition to the C4 being the new face of the franchise. At this point, Hayward is the only one that has seen a significant uptick in mins, the other 3 are barely increasing.
Just for comparison:
Code:
player oct nov dec jan feb y1 y2 y3
Kanter 14.3 14.2 16.5 12.2 13.6 13.2 14.3
Favors 18 23.1 20.9 21.1 23.8 19.7 20.2 22
Burks 2.3 9.8 13.2 16.1 25.3 15.9 15.4
Hayward 23.8 28.6 24.8 26.4 inj 16 30.5 26.6
Millsap 18 20.8 30.1
CJ 8.8 10.1 11.5
Brewer 12.1 27.5 32.2
J Evans 9.4 7.5 5.5
Dwill 28.8 36.9 37.3
AK 26.2 27.7 37.1This is all over the board, so I would like to hear thoughts. It is very clear that management really liked Dwill. Brewer seems to have earned his minutes, CJ also earned them after his best season in his 3rd yr and jumped to 22 mpg in yr #4. Millsap was a guy who worked his way up as well.
If I had to pick a theme it would be that historically guys haven't got mins until at least 21 yrs old. It appears that Favors is the exception here to an extent. If minutes say what the franchise believes about the C4, Hayward is a keeper (a bit more than a rotation player), and the other 3 look promising with Favors being the furthest along (yet not progressing much).
I would like to see a slow deliberate transition to the C4 being the new face of the franchise. At this point, Hayward is the only one that has seen a significant uptick in mins, the other 3 are barely increasing.
Last edited:
George
Banned
Keep in mind, Millsap lost playing time in his 4th year. His 3rd year minutes were mainly due to boozer playing only 37 games that season.
Think of all the playing time Favors would get if Millsap only played 37 games this season
grey rep means someone repped you but they don't count because they're newbs, and presumably know nothing. . . . lol
vslice02
Well-Known Member
Andrei Kirilenko played 2000+ minutes and started the last half of his rookie season as a 20-year old. DeShawn Stevenson was given ample opportunites to win the starting SG spot as a 20 & 21 year-old but wasn't effective. Same with CJ Miles as a 19-year old in 2006-07.
If I had to pick a theme - it would be that prior to the past couple seasons - historically the Jazz play young players when they are ready to help the team win. I like the chart & numbers, but sometimes mpg isn't always indicative of opportunities to play.
fishonjazz
Well-Known Member
Contributor
2018 Award Winner
2019 Award Winner
20-21 Award Winner
2022 Award Winner
2023 Award Winner
2024 Award Winner
2025 Award Winner
yes your first sentence was correct (about the lack of name calling) then franklin showed up and started calling people "apoligists" and saying "you're gonna need a flyswatter".... then george shows up and starts with the cursing and criticizing of other peoples opinions.
vegas
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the additional insight. I added AK to the list above. I can't believe I didn't put him up in the first place! Deshawn and CJ you have to go into the individual game logs and you can see some groups of games where they get mins. DeShawn even cracks 30 min a few times.
I also agree that data needs context and interpretation. However, there is nothing worse than somebody with blinders on posting baseless opinion.
What can I say. It took a bit to put that post together, plus multitasking...
I agreed with the rest of your post, for the most part. I'm just skeptical of this part. NBA history, including Jazz history, is replete with teams misestimating the abilities of players even after they played significant minutes, if they were still young at the time of their first extension. So, I don't see this as being a good motivation for getting them more playing time. I think they have earned more playing time, but for other reasons.