Jazz still not watching film together

[LunaticWolf]

Sometimes it's amusing to just sit back and see what some of you people think you know. Whether Sloan is right or wrong on this issue isn't really relevant. What's relevant to me is the kind of completely asinine comments on this thread - "that's Coaching 101!," "he's not doing his job," etc, etc. - as if Sloan is some random clueless retard that's somehow unaware of the possibilities of film study, or has decided to reject a tactic that is somehow guaranteed to improve the team. Why do we know it's guaranteed to help the team? Why, because a few idiots on a message board INSIST that it's "coaching fundamentals" and that Sloan is "not doing his job" if he doesn't do it. As if any of them knows the first thing about coaching. ("By jove, if we'd been STUDYING FILM AS A TEAM last year, we would have won 73 games instead of a measly 53!") I certainly don't think it's out of bounds for fans to criticize their coaches, and sometimes they/you/we are going to be right. But the level of self-important delusion in this thread is staggering. Maybe Sloan has good reasons for not having team sessions, maybe he doesn't, and maybe he's just being too stubbornly set in his ways - I don't know. But just because something is conventional wisdom doesn't mean it's the only way to get things done. Every coach has their own idiosyncracies and different ways they prepare and train and practice and judge and game-plan and adjust. Yet somehow you all have this cut-and-dried concept of what Jerry is "supposed" to do, as if it's really that elementary?

Welcome to JazzFanz.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Using surgical skill to produce a comment that is specific, clear, and creative, InGameStrategy reveals teh brilliant insight that never seeing a professor at all is the approximate equivalent of spending hours a day with a coach focused on your improvment, whcih coach prefers one technique over another. Bravo!

That's why the jazz had out game "film" after every game: so the players can watch it. The only difference is whether it is the best use of practice time.

According to your blog, you are a teacher, so I'd be surprised that you'd argue that independent study in whatever form is better assistance by a teacher, with or without independent study. I will grant you that my example took it to an extreme, implying little to no teacher involvement in any form.

There might be NBA limits to how much time coaches can spend with players practicing or training. My argument is that whatever time constraint there is, it might be good--at least temporarily--to reallocate some of that time toward watching film. Also, I would be surprised if impromptu huddles of 5 or 10 minutes watching excerpts of game film--even from a laptop--would count against any such rumored limit on practice time, which would not take away from practice time at all. I invite anyone who knows about NBA limits on practice (or whether the Jazz tests those limits) to share. If there is such a limit, I doubt that those limits were tested on Thursday, given that it was on the day of a second game of a back-to-back, giving plenty of time to incorporate watching game film as a team because the team probably didn't go through a full practice.

In other words, it's feasible for a coach to lead a film discussion. Let one or more of the assistant coaches do it, Jerry, if you prefer. Just don't put it all on the players. Most of them didn't even graduate from college, so they are not necessarily students of anything.

 

[Guitaro]

I think Sloan is a good coach. Not a great coach. He has done wonders for this franchise and the team. He's been the face of the coaching staff for a very long time and I respect him highly. That said, he has certain aspects that I completely deplore.

I think he's great in some ways, like leading by example, telling the truth to his players/staff/media, being dependable, getting the most out of practices, and not wavering when his manhood is tested.

I think he's good, not great, in most of the other areas except knowing when to call timeout and substitutions. I've noticed there's many of us that feel that way. I don't like how he gets that stubborn edge to him and thinks to himself "I'm not gonna bail these guys out." I understand his reasoning but I think it's not the way to approach basketball.

Basketball is a game of strategy, not just effort. Phil Jackson is a master strategist. It's no wonder his teams always do well. For example, when the opposing team scores 2-3 baskets in a row, PJ automatically calls a timeout. Timeouts are a great tool for trying something different. If you see your team doing one thing, and the opposing team is crushing it, then, instead of just yelling from the sidelines, call timeout. Have them focus on something different. The players are your pieces to guide and direct, not so much to yell at.

Maybe we should send Sloan a letter?

 

[anonymous832]

Under that same logic, it's better to graduate from college on independent study rather than interacting with a teacher.

That's so NOT a relevant parallel, it almost seems like you're parodying bad analogies.

But as ridiculous as your example is, I'll bite anyway: A better analogy would be teaching style. I've had great teachers who ran intensive, interactive class discussions, and I've had terrible teachers who did the same. I've had terrible teachers who just stood up there and lectured the whole time, and I've had great teachers who did the same. I've had teachers who have required tons of reading and writing, and other teachers - in similar classes - who have required less reading and less writing, but spent more time on each assignment. There are benefits to both. I've had great teachers who used a lot of visual aides and great teachers who didn't. There is not necessarily one right answer. Teachers teach differently; coaches coach differently - and that applies at every level of their teaching/coaching.

This is why, anonymous, that some posters on this board differ with some of the tactics that Sloan uses. Even if not watching game film was adequate for when the team already knew the offense, it's probably appropriate right now with at least a couple of young players (Hayward, Evans) and a half-dozen new ones.

Disagreeing with tactics is fine. Not knowing anything about something and then disagreeing with those tactics is....well, it's just irrelevant. Not once on this board has anyone come up with any kind of legitimate analysis/argument about the benefits of individual film study vs. the benefits of team film study. Common sense says there are benefits to both, and apparently Sloan in general prefers the former. He likes the results he's gotten, I guess. (Considering that coaches across the league consider his staff as one of the best - if not the best - at pure teaching, I would have to assume his behind-the-scenes tactics have, in fact, worked quite well. But, as I've said, I don't really have any expertise in that area, so for all I know Sloan and Co. may legitimately be missing out on something here.)

But no, instead of any concrete arguments - nor, more importantly, any acknowledgment that preparation tactics (what works, what doesn't, and why, and how) are a subject of which we have a limited understanding - we get stuff like, "God, what an idiot! EVERYONE knows you have to study film as a team! Gaaah!" No other argument beyond that, because these posters don't really know what they're talking about - but "team film study" sounds good to them, or it makes sense to them (and hey, it kinda makes sense to me, too!), and so they assume that that's the way everyone has to do it, and anyone who doesn't is simply failing.

That is the extent of the logic on display here.

And to tell you the truth, I would bet that the majority of the most successful coaches in the major sports are fairly unconventional - they do certain things that no one else is doing, or don't do things that everyone else is doing, etc. Again, I'm not saying not watching film as a team is necessarily a good unconventional tactic. I'm only saying I don't really know, and that neither do people on this forum, and that criticism of something like that HAS to be tempered by some nuanced thinking and more than a little humility, or it's worthless.

And what is disappointing is that Sloan isn't giving any hints that he would consider possibly giving it a try.

Oh, you mean except for the part where this week he said he WOULD consider it, and that a team film session was planned for Friday? Except for that, you mean?

Back to the fatal flaw of lack of adjusting to the situation, both in games and out.

P.S. Experience or authority is definitely not an assurance of correctness; just ask Richard Nixon.
(He was a U.S. president, btw.)

This floored me, I've gotta admit. An arbitrary Richard Nixon reference gratuitously thrown in. I love it. With that line, this officially became my favorite post of the week. I don't even know you and I can already tell that your friends secretly hate you. A Nixon reference? Really? Who does that?

Anyway, I didn't say that experience in and of itself equates correctness, and I made the point that I have no problem with fans - especially knowledgeable fans, and there are plenty of knowledgeable Jazz fans - criticizing a coach or player or anything, and that sometimes they're absolutely right. What I have a problem with is the absurdly simplistic way people were reacting to something that they really don't understand at all - behind-the-scenes preparation is one of the things we know about LEAST, and yet people were acting as if it was common knowledge that This Is The Way You Do It. I'm sure if you go to the coaches around the league, you'll find plenty of differentiation in a lot of different areas - for instance, there have been coaches (i.e. Riley) who have long, brutal, intense practices on a regular basis. And there are those who prefer to run lighter practices. There are arguments and counter-arguments for both. But both styles have been successful. That's just one example, but I'm sure there are plenty of others.

And anyway, I never said that I thought Sloan was correct - I said it's in an area so obscured to those of us who are merely fans, that having an authoritative view of what Sloan "should" do about film study in order to correctly do his job is delusional at best, if not plain idiotic.

 

[InGameStrategy]

That's so NOT a relevant parallel, it almost seems like you're parodying bad analogies.

But as ridiculous as your example is, I'll bite anyway: A better analogy would be teaching style. I've had great teachers who ran intensive, interactive class discussions, and I've had terrible teachers who did the same. I've had terrible teachers who just stood up there and lectured the whole time, and I've had great teachers who did the same. I've had teachers who have required tons of reading and writing, and other teachers - in similar classes - who have required less reading and less writing, but spent more time on each assignment. There are benefits to both. I've had great teachers who used a lot of visual aides and great teachers who didn't. There is not necessarily one right answer. Teachers teach differently; coaches coach differently - and that applies at every level of their teaching/coaching.

I've clarified my analogy above. What still does hold from my analogy is this: that more interaction with the instructor is better. There's probably a limit to this, too, but too much instruction doesn't seem to be the problem with this Jazz team. They're apparently not watching film together at all.

Disagreeing with tactics is fine. Not knowing anything about something and then disagreeing with those tactics is....well, it's just irrelevant.

Um, this is a message board, and most of us are operating from limited information of what goes on behind the scenes, including you. In this case, though, both players and coach pretty much acknowledged that not much film watching as a team is going on, so we have that info on pretty good sources.

Not once on this board has anyone come up with any kind of legitimate analysis/argument about the benefits of individual film study vs. the benefits of team film study. Common sense says there are benefits to both, and apparently Sloan in general prefers the former. He likes the results he's gotten, I guess.

The past two games are not satisfactory results IMHO, and the situation has changed, and several posters including myself are opining on a change, probably based on "common sense" (your words) that more instruction from teachers (e.g., coaches) is better than less. With my hangups with Sloan, even I acknowledge that.

(Considering that coaches across the league consider his staff as one of the best - if not the best - at pure teaching, I would have to assume his behind-the-scenes tactics have, in fact, worked quite well. But, as I've said, I don't really have any expertise in that area, so for all I know Sloan and Co. may legitimately be missing out on something here.)

You're playing the authority card here again; that's why I brought up the Richard Nixon example. There are plenty more where that came from. Just because a person has the power or experience doesn't mean that they do things correctly. And our ability to praise and criticize people in power (such as Sloan) is a rather fundamental tenet of our society

But no, instead of any concrete arguments - nor, more importantly, any acknowledgment that preparation tactics (what works, what doesn't, and why, and how) are a subject of which we have a limited understanding - we get stuff like, "God, what an idiot! EVERYONE knows you have to study film as a team! Gaaah!"

Actually, I gave several citations of how Kobe and Phil Jackson do bring the team together to watch game film, and I also cited football as another example where game film is crucial, so your broad-sweeping claim of no concrete arguments is bunk, especially that you have brought no outside examples to the table where teams have been more successful not watching game film than if they did.

Oh, you mean except for the part where this week he said he WOULD consider it, and that a team film session was planned for Friday? Except for that, you mean?

I wasn't aware of that comment by Sloan. "Consider it" is pretty weak. It should've been in place already. Let's see if Sloan remedies it. I support Deron in being an impetus behind making it happen, but players shouldn't have to catalyze such changes any more than students and manager should have to catalyze changes in teaching or leading, respectively.

This floored me, I've gotta admit. An arbitrary Richard Nixon reference gratuitously thrown in. I love it. With that line, this officially became my favorite post of the week. I don't even know you and I can already tell that your friends secretly hate you. A Nixon reference? Really? Who does that?

I do. Would you like more? It's not hard to find examples of leaders who consciously or unconsciously misuse power. In this case, the misuse is somewhat innocuous, because it's just a game, but my criticism of Sloan started with horrendous substitution patterns years ago and continued with poor communication with players who aren't already self-motivated. Such Sloan behavior continues today.

Anyway, I didn't say that experience in and of itself equates correctness, and I made the point that I have no problem with fans - especially knowledgeable fans, and there are plenty of knowledgeable Jazz fans - criticizing a coach or player or anything, and that sometimes they're absolutely right. What I have a problem with is the absurdly simplistic way people were reacting to something that they really don't understand at all - behind-the-scenes preparation is one of the things we know about LEAST, and yet people were acting as if it was common knowledge that This Is The Way You Do It.

Um, many people on this board have experience and training in managing groups or organizations, and many such concepts are tranferrable to professional basketball. In any case, this is a message board where opinions are expressed.

I'm sure if you go to the coaches around the league, you'll find plenty of differentiation in a lot of different areas - for instance, there have been coaches (i.e. Riley) who have long, brutal, intense practices on a regular basis. And there are those who prefer to run lighter practices. There are arguments and counter-arguments for both. But both styles have been successful. That's just one example, but I'm sure there are plenty of others.

Yes, and that's why I'm posing one set of arguments, stemmed from the information available.

And anyway, I never said that I thought Sloan was correct - I said it's in an area so obscured to those of us who are merely fans, that having an authoritative view of what Sloan "should" do about film study in order to correctly do his job is delusional at best, if not plain idiotic.

Welcome to JazzFanz. If you can't hack it, then you can remain . . . anonymous.

 

[Jean-Luc]

Why the heck weren't they watching film in the first place?

Gawd.

Glad Sloan and the gang are going to get together and start watching film. Pretty crucial I'd think.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I'm having a tough time believing there's any argument here, even though some people are going a little overboard.

So let me ask the apologists a few things. Did basketball become an individual sport? Are players supposed to intrinsically know how to best implement team strategy or how others are supposed to or likely react on a play? Is spending 15 minutes on team film session really that costly to other parts of practice?

It seems pretty elementary. I'm not asking Sloan to pour over game film, but going over film as a team for a matter of minutes isn't asking much and relative to not doing it at all, could reap significant benefits. Especially for a team that isn't fluid or comfortable with how the sets are designed to be run.

 

[carolinajazz]

With the bargaining agreement, the practice time is limited. Would this film time be coming during practice time? Is that the best use of practice time? Can players be mandated to watch film out of practice time? I know Williams is a passionate, dedicated player who I suspect doesn't care about the restrictions of the labor agreement, but team management is required to care about these issues.

...please tell me your joking?!!! These guys make $100.000 plus PER GAME....and they have practice restrictions mandated by the Union? And some of these restrictions involve limiting the time they can spend watching game film?

 

[Harcher]

I'm having a tough time believing there's any argument here, even though some people are going a little overboard.

So let me ask the apologists a few things. Did basketball become an individual sport? Are players supposed to intrinsically know how to best implement team strategy or how others are supposed to or likely react on a play? Is spending 15 minutes on team film session really that costly to other parts of practice?

It seems pretty elementary. I'm not asking Sloan to pour over game film, but going over film as a team for a matter of minutes isn't asking much and relative to not doing it at all, could reap significant benefits. Especially for a team that isn't fluid or comfortable with how the sets are designed to be run.

As an apologist and hence one who is like-minded, i can imagine Sloan saying "YOu need film to understand that the other team is simply kickin' your ****???" Whether that is correct postion to take is debatable, but that is how i feel. If this was a seven game series and the subtlties are makeing the difference, then break out the DVD player. I've played plenty of basketball and never watched film and could very easily make an assessment of the problems we've witnessed thus far -without the film study method.

There is no need for video analysis to find out if the Suns are going to run down the court after MADE baskets. There's no need for video analysis for AJ to choose to pass it out of a 1 on 4 situation rather than shoot. There's no need for video analysis to see that most of the players are not moving HARD on offense.

I'm guessing sloan and coaches outlined the sitations and then said - "go watch the DVD on the way home and you'll see what we are referring to."

So does anyone think that a team session would be significantly better. I don't. Not at this stage for certain.

 

[Marty McFly]

Obviously the players don't care that much or they would have been getting together for the past 4 seasons to do this. They're grown ups and can work on their games outside of practice. They have each others phone numbers and they all have access to all the game film.

My guy friends and I get together and watch "film" together all the time. I don't know what these guys have against it!

 

[Deleted member 365]

What exactly is preventing Deron from getting his team together and watching film?

Sounds to me like Deron is trying to shift the focus from his hellishly awful play while also throwing his coach under the bus.

Deron also acted in that interview as if no one cares about his opinion. Outside of Stockton and Malone, has there ever been a player that has possessed so much power? In fact, I think one could argue that with the passing of Larry H Miller and Jerry Sloan's age and the lack of any other superstar on this team, Deron might possibly be the strongest figure in the entire franchise right now. I'm pretty sure that if Deron offered any constructive suggestions or ideas, they'd be immediately considered.

All well...

 

[//r00t 4 Jazz]

...please tell me your joking?!!! These guys make $100.000 plus PER GAME....and they have practice restrictions mandated by the Union? And some of these restrictions involve limiting the time they can spend watching game film?

There's only so much time a coach or staff can spend with the team, I know I've read Sloan has short but very intense practices however so I'm not totally sure what to think of the situation. If I HAD to guess I would say Sloan knows they're provided all the film and expects them to watch it on their own for the most part and probably does only a little team film study and expects his team leader(s) to figure out and keep the weakest link(s) up to par so if that means team study then they can set that up (like DWill did with Big Al).

Also he may expect the players to come to him personally (this has been brought up in the past) if they have any problems or questions or changes.

*edit I also agree with the previous 3 posts that where made while I was slowly typing mine out at work*