John Stockton Claims Medicine is Bad

[Bucknutz]

Having spent 4+ years with the Chinese Olympic teams that regularly use stretching, pressure point massages, and acupuncture for their athletes I feel pretty confident that it is ineffective for athletes and overall damaging to their athletic performance. But acupuncture itself does have some effectiveness and there is some studies pointing out its positive effects, but its debatable at best.

Stretching is ineffective for athletes and damaging to their athletic performance? That is a bold statement. I would have to disagree with you on that. It’s probably one of the most important things to for injury prevention and recovery.

Importance of Stretching for the Young Athlete - CHOC Children's Blog

Stretching can often take a back seat to your general exercise routine and sport-related activities, but these are an essential part of any conditioning or physical therapy program.

health.choc.org

The importance of stretching - Harvard Health

Stretching keeps the muscles flexible, strong, and healthy, which is needed to maintain a range of motion in the joints. Without it, the muscles shorten and become tight. Then, when muscles are cal...

www.health.harvard.edu

Benefits Of Stretching

Benefits of stretching exercises in sport including improved performance, reduced risk of injury, improved posture and stress relief.

www.sportsinjuryclinic.net

View: https://youtu.be/6N0mv-E8OU4

 

[Ron Mexico]

Stretching is ineffective for athletes and damaging to their athletic performance? That is a bold statement. I would have to disagree with you on that. It’s probably one of the most important things to for injury prevention and recovery.

Importance of Stretching for the Young Athlete - CHOC Children's Blog

Stretching can often take a back seat to your general exercise routine and sport-related activities, but these are an essential part of any conditioning or physical therapy program.

health.choc.org

The importance of stretching - Harvard Health

Stretching keeps the muscles flexible, strong, and healthy, which is needed to maintain a range of motion in the joints. Without it, the muscles shorten and become tight. Then, when muscles are cal...

www.health.harvard.edu

Benefits Of Stretching

Benefits of stretching exercises in sport including improved performance, reduced risk of injury, improved posture and stress relief.

www.sportsinjuryclinic.net

View: https://youtu.be/6N0mv-E8OU4

It has its place for certain needs. But often it's damaging for athletes. Newer studies are pointing towards that more and more. Stretching causes strains and micro tears for up to about 24 hours or longer. So stretching before exercise increases your chance for injuries. Similarly right after exercising or performing athletic movements you have caused strain to muscles and ligaments/tendons. It's damaging to stretch the muscles right after that. Then you have the whole tightness in muscles that articles like these point to as being bad, but that isn't the case. Tightness can help you run faster, jump higher and so on. Where stretching does have it's place is helping you be able to use range of motion for the movement in your sport. This is rarely an issue for athletes but does occasionally occur. Then there is pain and injuries in general. This is a place where stretching can help, but this needs to be done with medical personnel advising you, not just stretching all around. You can strongly see the effects of too much stretching in Chinese athletes. A little bit of my research on my PhD in China focused on this. Anecdotally I have seen a huge difference in changing some of these routines in athletes over the last 10+ years of training athletes. Full range of motion movements and mobility exercises are much better over all than the standard static stretching. But people can consider that also stretching so sometimes it's semantics.

 

[Jaymz]

PhD in what? Everything you said is counterintuitive when it comes to how muscle skeleton and tissue are known to function. If you have a PhD, then you certainly went through most of the education process I did.

Reduced ROM reduces the amount of force you can generate through muscle contractions. How does having “tight” or reduced ROM in your muscles serve to increase athletes speed? Also athletes use more than just speed.


Y’all just trying to troll I swear

 

[Jaymz]

I’m open to new information if it exists and is proven but… all these professional sports teams just seem to be shootings themselves with all the body maintenance they’re doing on their athletes

 

[Bucknutz]

It has its place for certain needs. But often it's damaging for athletes. Newer studies are pointing towards that more and more. Stretching causes strains and micro tears for up to about 24 hours or longer. So stretching before exercise increases your chance for injuries. Similarly right after exercising or performing athletic movements you have caused strain to muscles and ligaments/tendons. It's damaging to stretch the muscles right after that. Then you have the whole tightness in muscles that articles like these point to as being bad, but that isn't the case. Tightness can help you run faster, jump higher and so on. Where stretching does have it's place is helping you be able to use range of motion for the movement in your sport. This is rarely an issue for athletes but does occasionally occur. Then there is pain and injuries in general. This is a place where stretching can help, but this needs to be done with medical personnel advising you, not just stretching all around. You can strongly see the effects of too much stretching in Chinese athletes. A little bit of my research on my PhD in China focused on this. Anecdotally I have seen a huge difference in changing some of these routines in athletes over the last 10+ years of training athletes. Full range of motion movements and mobility exercises are much better over all than the standard static stretching. But people can consider that also stretching so sometimes it's semantics.

Do you have any studies that show stretching before exercise increases your chance for injuries? You're talking about all major sports from NFL, NBA, NHL which players stretch before games/practices. Major college sports athletes all stretch before games and practices. This statement is going against what almost all professional athletes do before they play their sport. Even my daughters competitive volleyball club spends money on trainers who work with them weekly on stretching, focusing on ankle and knee injury prevention.
I honestly would love to know more. This is not an argument or trying to be combative. I'm very sincere in asking for this. I love sports science and love athlete improvement through science. We spend money on both kids for ocular improvement, running movements, agility/plyometrics and speed at different facilities. You can see huge growth in the kids that do these activities.

Was your PhD in sports or sports related?

 

[Jaymz]

He’s trollin man. I got had. Told ya I’m passionate.

I’ll comment on the Chinese medicine thing though. Chinese medicine is taught to massage therapist students at the beginning of the curriculum.

Basically a history lesson and had a lot to do with the elements. (Fire, water, earth, steel) and how to balance out the energies.
It has a Pokémon battle system of strength vs weaknesses.
Everything was condensed into one chapter and just briefly swept over.
And yes, the questions on Chinese medicine are on the final exams. (Both my multi-national license Itec, and multi-state license, mblex)

However, I got the jist that Chinese medicine isn’t meant to be taken literally for medical applications.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Do you have any studies that show stretching before exercise increases your chance for injuries? You're talking about all major sports from NFL, NBA, NHL which players stretch before games/practices. Major college sports athletes all stretch before games and practices. This statement is going against what almost all professional athletes do before they play their sport. Even my daughters competitive volleyball club spends money on trainers who work with them weekly on stretching, focusing on ankle and knee injury prevention.
I honestly would love to know more. This is not an argument or trying to be combative. I'm very sincere in asking for this. I love sports science and love athlete improvement through science. We spend money on both kids for ocular improvement, running movements, agility/plyometrics and speed at different facilities. You can see huge growth in the kids that do these activities.

Was your PhD in sports or sports related?

First it depends what type of stretching we are talking about. What I am referring to as more of a concern is static stretching and to some extent some styles of ballistic stretching. Basically stretch and hold. This used to be commonly done with sports teams and even weightlifters but sometime in the late 80s and early 90s sports performance people realized it was causing more issues than good. Generally today almost every sports performance coach knows not to do this. But it still does exist because of outdated information and because coaches dont really know much about this side of things and just do what they did when they were a player or what they have always done as a coach. The more correct thing to do is a dynamic warmup. This involves a few things but mainly getting blood flow through the muscles and warming the body, activating muscles, and getting a full range of motion out of them through movements. So for example if the sport uses hamstrings I would have them do something like some reps of good mornings and then have them do something like walking scoops or even straight leg marches. Old school coaches would have them do a runners stretch or something like that. You see some teams these days use elastic bands for some dynamic movements but that players tend to start doing static stretching if the coaches arent involved much, these can be okay warmups though. The Jazz did this for along time until they got P3 involved more. There is a time to use static stretching before and that is if you are having issues and your med team wants you to do stretching to loosen something up or get better range of motion out of a joint for something specific, knowing the trade off. Next time you do some serious static stretching jump around and move around right after. You will feel less explosive and somewhat fatigued in the muscles. You also will have greater movement in the joints, which means they are looser and more likely to move further in situations that cause injuries.

A lot of the actual research is behind paywalls but there are plenty of articles summarizing some of it, like these along with some studies in them.

Does pre-exercise static stretching inhibit maximal muscular performance? A meta-analytical review - PubMed

We applied a meta-analytical approach to derive a robust estimate of the acute effects of pre-exercise static stretching (SS) on strength, power, and explosive muscular performance. A computerized search of articles published between 1966 and December 2010 was performed using PubMed, SCOPUS, and...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Impact of Static Stretching on Performance

Static stretching is a type of stretching exercises in which muscle is held in the same elongated position without movement. Static stretching has a relaxation and elongation effect on muscle which increases range of motion (ROM), decreases musculotendinous stiffness and also reduce risk of...

www.physio-pedia.com

Could Your Stretching Cause Injury? — Architech Sports and Physical Therapy

Many athletes are told that injuries are prevented by properly stretching prior to practices, workouts, and competitions. In fact if you ask coaches and parents what should be done first before working out, the answer will most often be “Stretch”.

www.architechsports.com

Stretch Before Exercise? Not So Fast. | BU Today | Boston University

Boston University is a leading private research institution with two primary campuses in the heart of Boston and programs around the world.

www.bu.edu

I have a Masters degree in Sports Performance but due to covid and moving from China I have not finished my PHd in sports science. I probably will one day because I enjoy producing research in this field, I finished all my courses and produced a couple smaller research papers but never finished my dissertation. I really enjoy research in post activation potentiation. These days I have slowed down from coaching a lot and do more of the science behind the scenes for team. Such as creating their testing protocol (think combine) and analyzing the data for performance factors and injury risks. Then I create the periodization and framework for their workouts. I also train newer sports performance coaches or strength and conditioning coaches.

 

[Bucknutz]

First it depends what type of stretching we are talking about. What I am referring to as more of a concern is static stretching and to some extent some styles of ballistic stretching. Basically stretch and hold. This used to be commonly done with sports teams and even weightlifters but sometime in the late 80s and early 90s sports performance people realized it was causing more issues than good. Generally today almost every sports performance coach knows not to do this. But it still does exist because of outdated information and because coaches dont really know much about this side of things and just do what they did when they were a player or what they have always done as a coach. The more correct thing to do is a dynamic warmup. This involves a few things but mainly getting blood flow through the muscles and warming the body, activating muscles, and getting a full range of motion out of them through movements. So for example if the sport uses hamstrings I would have them do something like some reps of good mornings and then have them do something like walking scoops or even straight leg marches. Old school coaches would have them do a runners stretch or something like that. You see some teams these days use elastic bands for some dynamic movements but that players tend to start doing static stretching if the coaches arent involved much, these can be okay warmups though. The Jazz did this for along time until they got P3 involved more. There is a time to use static stretching before and that is if you are having issues and your med team wants you to do stretching to loosen something up or get better range of motion out of a joint for something specific, knowing the trade off. Next time you do some serious static stretching jump around and move around right after. You will feel less explosive and somewhat fatigued in the muscles. You also will have greater movement in the joints, which means they are looser and more likely to move further in situations that cause injuries.

A lot of the actual research is behind paywalls but there are plenty of articles summarizing some of it, like these along with some studies in them.

Does pre-exercise static stretching inhibit maximal muscular performance? A meta-analytical review - PubMed

We applied a meta-analytical approach to derive a robust estimate of the acute effects of pre-exercise static stretching (SS) on strength, power, and explosive muscular performance. A computerized search of articles published between 1966 and December 2010 was performed using PubMed, SCOPUS, and...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Impact of Static Stretching on Performance

Static stretching is a type of stretching exercises in which muscle is held in the same elongated position without movement. Static stretching has a relaxation and elongation effect on muscle which increases range of motion (ROM), decreases musculotendinous stiffness and also reduce risk of...

www.physio-pedia.com

Could Your Stretching Cause Injury? — Architech Sports and Physical Therapy

Many athletes are told that injuries are prevented by properly stretching prior to practices, workouts, and competitions. In fact if you ask coaches and parents what should be done first before working out, the answer will most often be “Stretch”.

www.architechsports.com

Stretch Before Exercise? Not So Fast. | BU Today | Boston University

Boston University is a leading private research institution with two primary campuses in the heart of Boston and programs around the world.

www.bu.edu

I have a Masters degree in Sports Performance but due to covid and moving from China I have not finished my PHd in sports science. I probably will one day because I enjoy producing research in this field, I finished all my courses and produced a couple smaller research papers but never finished my dissertation. I really enjoy research in post activation potentiation. These days I have slowed down from coaching a lot and do more of the science behind the scenes for team. Such as creating their testing protocol (think combine) and analyzing the data for performance factors and injury risks. Then I create the periodization and framework for their workouts. I also train newer sports performance coaches or strength and conditioning coaches.

Thanks for this. I really do appreciate it. Your job actually sounds like a blast. I find sports science interesting and I’m eager to learn the newest performance options.
For the last two years Ocular has been a big focus. The improvement of reaction, peripheral, tracking l, player memory and reading (not books, but angles) has been incredible. It has made huge improvements to my daughters defensive volleyball game.
I wish we had these options when I was playing sports.

 

[SteakNEggs]

And yet MAGA/anti science vaxxers never go after PurduePharma for this type of stuff. There’s no movement to regulate this industry. There’s no talk of getting capitalism out of our medicine. No talk of moving towards a single payer system, like most of the industrialized world already has. It’s always focused on:

1. Anti vax nonsense, usually promoted by MAGA/Russian influencers.
2. Throwing a pity party for poor whites in the rust belt.

Never is it directed at the corporations and the health care system that have led to opioid addiction. Never is there any talk of the immoral (white) communities full of broken families that don’t appreciate education In the rust belt and their self-destructive tendencies. Just compare how communities of color that have been ravaged by crack are described vs white rural companies in the rust belt have been ravaged by opioid addition. The differences couldn’t be more stark. Yet, both suffer because the focus is never about improving the health care system (and much of the focus has been on exploring social, economic, and political inequalities).

Let’s focus on the health care system and much of this scary “big medicine” debate goes away.

@Red what is this? "We Debated" no you did not. This is probably the dumbest post in history lol. Typical hate and racism. Usually it's typical hate, racism, and hate towards religion though so it's an improvement.

Not taking the vaccine is one thing.

Being a propagandist's junior assistant by passing on all the BS like you know what you're talking about (when YOU, you specifically, don't) is deadly. Yeah. I think you're a bad person who deserves the same punishment a convicted murderer would receive. That's what I think of you. I think that you're no better than a murderer. Let me rephrase, I think that you ARE a murderer.

If there was an announcement on jazzfanz that you died a horrible painful death... I would not be sad.

That is what I think of you.

@Red This is not debate... Right. Then when I get stern back you whine and cry. If a person says this here, imagine what **** they said when the virus was going on and more emotional. It was this every day with you guys. Not this disgusting but in the same boat. You really think this sort of diatribe just started yesterday? This is just the nearest sample size. This sort of mean and downright hateful rhetoric was daily back in the day. I know this is no you personally but were just as guilty of this sort of diatribe yet deny it.

Now what did I say here that was wrong? This is just the most recent inhumane POS human stuff I can find as it's recent. Be honest... You wont answer a thing because I constantly prove you wrong and then you flee just like fish but how is this not flat out disgusting?

 

[SteakNEggs]

I mean this entire thread is a hate filled cesspool of you guys being overdramatic a-holes. John Stockton never said he was against Medicine. What he said is that he believes in alternate methods over masking the injuries with prescription drugs yet look at the hate towards the guy because you guys took a flat out propagated tweet and ran with it without actually listening to the actual interview... Which to me as a Jazz fan was a fantastic listen if you weren't so filled with hate.. But no... John disagreed with you guys so you hate him. This is not debate red... This is sheep being sheep.

@Red

 

[Red]

I mean this entire thread is a hate filled cesspool of you guys being overdramatic a-holes. John Stockton never said he was against Medicine. What he said is that he believes in alternate methods over masking the injuries with prescription drugs yet look at the hate towards the guy because you guys took a flat out propagated tweet and ran with it without actually listening to the actual interview... Which to me as a Jazz fan was a fantastic listen if you weren't so filled with hate.. But no... John disagreed with you guys so you hate him. This is not debate red... This is sheep being sheep.

@Red

I never got into any discussions involving John Stockton himself. Never talked about the man at all. Not once. You spend a great deal of time misrepresenting other posters.

 

[Red]

@Red This is not debate.

Now what did I say here that was wrong?

When you talk to others on this board, in the piss poor way you do, you will get reactions now and then. You’ve triggered, in myself, angry responses to you, and more than once. If you look at all your venomous comments to others, what do you expect? Do you provide any reasons at all for people to act kindly toward you, here on this board? I just think it must get tiring at times trying to maintain the standard of extreme venom toward others that you seem to insist upon, all the while whining about how bullied you are. Hey, if that’s what you enjoy doing I guess, just don’t know what the point of it all is.