Kanter and Burke have got to go

[da ThRONe]

And again, the Jazz lacked talent. Burks and Gordo played plenty of minutes together, but if they played all their minutes together, the Jazz would have been left with absolutely no creation on the perimeter for about 1/3 of every game. That's simply not sensible. It made perfect sense to bring a couple players with some on-ball ability off the bench.

FWIW, Burks-Gordo-Kanter-Favors played 261 minutes together, and were -11.5/48 minutes.

I don't accept that Corbin didn't improve the young players or couldn't put together an appropriate offense. The first claim requires a much better argument, especially since I think Corbin generally played to his players' strengths on offense. The team simply lacked offensive talent this year. The Jazz had top-10 offenses in 2011/12 and 2012/13. I think Alec has developed nicely, and Gordo was given every opportunity to grow into a new role this past season. Favors, despite his offensive limitations, was still given opportunities on offense. Take a look at how many touches the guy got this season. Corbin was trying to keep him involved, even if he wasn't being relied on for scoring.

I honestly think that Corbin is an easy target more than anything else. People don't want to believe that their young talent just wasn't/isn't very good. Someone has to be blamed when they perform poorly. I simply haven't seen anything approaching solid analysis of Corbin as coach. If I were to undertake that task, I would almost certainly start with defense, not with rotations and minutes for the young players. The former looks like a weakness, the latter, to me anyway, looks more like a strength.

So if you were looking for a stat/s that would suggest poor coaching as the cause of poor offensives execution what stats would those be? Personally I have no idea how you could begin to determine bad coaching philosophies strictly on stats.

Things like tempo could have easily been Corbin's approach or his mistake for not correcting. We can blame Kanter for having tunnel vision in the post, but where's the stat that show if there were proper spacing or if there were guys cutting to the basket? You can count how many times a team/player passed the ball per possession, but you can't determine how effective each pass were.

 

[Deleted member 365]

I really wish we had signed Marshall when we had a chance last year. His vision and passing ability is a beauty.

Could you imagine (just for fun) Diaw and Marshall on the same team? The passing...

I really want to see Burke improve in this area. I didn't see much vision or any passing last year. A lot of that could have been blamed on Corbin's system doe.

 

[GVC]

So if you were looking for a stat/s that would suggest poor coaching as the cause of poor offensives execution what stats would those be? Personally I have no idea how you could begin to determine bad coaching philosophies strictly on stats.

I never said I was looking for stats. An argument that better explains how the talent on the roster could have been better used would be nice. FWIW, I've never said that Corbin is a great tactician. I simply don't understand the game well enough to make that judgment. What bothers me is that most of the anti-Corbin rhetoric is about mismanagement of the young players' roles and minutes. Yet, the young guys all played decent minutes, and were given ample opportunity on-ball. To be able to put all of them in on-ball situations, their minutes had to be staggered. That players performed better in the lineups they were ultimately used in than in other lineups seems to support the notion that Corbin did a good job using lineups where players could be successful. Playing all 5 young guys together would have relegated 2-3 of them to secondary roles, and would have left the Jazz with a completely ineffective bench. The Jazz would have lost more games, and the young players would have had less opportunity to grow as facilitators. Let's not forget that the Jazz were reasonably competitive for a stretch in the middle of the season. Seems Corbin was balancing winning and youth development fairly well.

I get that most don't agree, but I really don't think I've been presented with much of a counterargument. Player performance is primarily the responsibility of the players. If players are performing poorly, we should be critical of them before pointing fingers elsewhere. I'm not convinced that the anti-Corbin brigade is doing anything more than finding a scapegoat to protect their over-assessment of the young talent on the team.

 

[GVC]

I really want to see Burke improve in this area. I didn't see much vision or any passing last year. A lot of that could have been blamed on Corbin's system doe.

Haven't you admitted to not watching many games this past season?

 

[GVC]

As for the actual topic, I don't think the Jazz should be in any rush to dump Kanter or Burke unless it helps them acquire elite-level talent.

Burke made a big jump from year 1 to year 2 at Michigan, so it's probably worth seeing what he comes back with after this summer. It seems reasonable to believe that he projects as a serviceable starting point guard. Is he replaceable? Probably, but dumping him for the sake of dumping him doesn't make a lot of sense.

Kanter still has an interesting set of skills. He seemed to take a couple steps backward this past season, but he may still figure it out. Who knows?

 

[NUMBERICA]

As for the actual topic, I don't think the Jazz should be in any rush to dump Kanter or Burke unless it helps them acquire elite-level talent.

Burke made a big jump from year 1 to year 2 at Michigan, so it's probably worth seeing what he comes back with after this summer. It seems reasonable to believe that he projects as a serviceable starting point guard. Is he replaceable? Probably, but dumping him for the sake of dumping him doesn't make a lot of sense.

Kanter still has an interesting set of skills. He seemed to take a couple steps backward this past season, but he may still figure it out. Who knows?

This is something I keep coming back to. I think the odds that Trey improves considerably this year are much higher than that he doesn't. Dude is smart and has grit.

 

[da ThRONe]

I never said I was looking for stats. An argument that better explains how the talent on the roster could have been better used would be nice. FWIW, I've never said that Corbin is a great tactician. I simply don't understand the game well enough to make that judgment. What bothers me is that most of the anti-Corbin rhetoric is about mismanagement of the young players' roles and minutes. Yet, the young guys all played decent minutes, and were given ample opportunity on-ball. To be able to put all of them in on-ball situations, their minutes had to be staggered. That players performed better in the lineups they were ultimately used in than in other lineups seems to support the notion that Corbin did a good job using lineups where players could be successful. Playing all 5 young guys together would have relegated 2-3 of them to secondary roles, and would have left the Jazz with a completely ineffective bench. The Jazz would have lost more games, and the young players would have had less opportunity to grow as facilitators. Let's not forget that the Jazz were reasonably competitive for a stretch in the middle of the season. Seems Corbin was balancing winning and youth development fairly well.

I get that most don't agree, but I really don't think I've been presented with much of a counterargument. Player performance is primarily the responsibility of the players. If players are performing poorly, we should be critical of them before pointing fingers elsewhere. I'm not convinced that the anti-Corbin brigade is doing anything more than finding a scapegoat to protect their over-assessment of the young talent on the team.

I disagree about the effects of coaching. For example it made no sense to play Burke off the ball and allow Hayward to be the primary ball handler. That took two guys strength and turned them into weakness. Hayward is better off ball as a spot up shooter, slasher, and secondary play maker and Burke is better as the primary ball handler. This was just one example of a simple bad coaching decision that lead to bad seasons for both players as they were forced into roles that didn't suit the either.

 

[franklin]

I disagree about the effects of coaching. For example it made no sense to play Burke off the ball and allow Hayward to be the primary ball handler.

Are you stoned? Burke was the 2ndary ball handler for what, 3 games? (And it wasn't to Hayward in those anyway.) Also, who didn't appreciate Corbin experimenting and pushing Trey to grow in his off ball capabilities for a few games? Pretty much everyone here did, so why are you being so whiney about it months after the fact?

****in malcontents.

 

[franklin]

This is something I keep coming back to. I think the odds that Trey improves considerably this year are much higher than that he doesn't. Dude is smart and has grit.

But how large a jump? I don't see him as ever being top 5 for the position, and for that he's easily replaceable for very reasonable money (about $6mm per).

I don't really want to trade him, I like his grit, but from an asset standpoint I don't see a reason to hang on out of loyalty to draft picks or because I'm a fan of his overall attitude and demeanor.

 

[Deleted member 365]

Trey plays hard

 

[da ThRONe]

Are you stoned? Burke was the 2ndary ball handler for what, 3 games? (And it wasn't to Hayward in those anyway.) Also, who didn't appreciate Corbin experimenting and pushing Trey to grow in his off ball capabilities for a few games? Pretty much everyone here did, so why are you being so whiney about it months after the fact?

****in malcontents.

What are you talking about? Hayward was the primary ball handler the majority of the season.

 

[NUMBERICA]

But how large a jump? I don't see him as ever being top 5 for the position, and for that he's easily replaceable for very reasonable money (about $6mm per).

I don't really want to trade him, I like his grit, but from an asset standpoint I don't see a reason to hang on out of loyalty to draft picks or because I'm a fan of his overall attitude and demeanor.

I didn't say he was untouchable. I'm saying let's see what we have and don't trade a guy when his value can probably be better. The Jazz also don't have another point guard as far as I can see, and that's not nothing.