Kris Dunn

[Handlogten's Heros]

No, his idea of Smart at home is Oni. In fact, when all his friends go out for a nice night of Smart, he dinedls with them but brings his frozen Oni.

DL is the guy that takes the PB and J he made at home (oni) to the clients office while doing fieldwork... he pockets the per diem his company allows him (cap space) and even saves the zip lock bag he put the sandwich in for use later (this represents no one but this is an actual example of a person I used to work with and he actually did this).

 

[infection]

DL is the guy that takes the PB and J he made at home (oni) to the clients office while doing fieldwork... he pockets the per diem his company allows him (cap space) and even saves the zip lock bag he put the sandwich in for use later (this represents no one but this is an actual example of a person I used to work with and he actually did this).

With all that per diem he saves he is able to reinvest it into his lunches.

 

[KqWIN]

I think Dunn is in the top tier of guard defenders when healthy... He's elite. The offense is generally bad because of shooting. I think if he was on the court for 15 minutes in lieu of JC there is certainly a pretty big swing defensively.

We need to be careful about saying guys at the end of the rotation don't matter or likely won't change our world... it is likely true... we've improved our depth but we were ousted by a team in large part because of moves they made at the end of their bench... Reggie Jackson, Mann, Nic Batum were all kinda fringy moves and all had huge dividends for the team. Dunn might be a tier below those moves and end up being the "Rondo" move... but there are times when those moves are magnified later.

I agree on Smart... I think the cap mechanics actually kinda work too. We should be able to pay to keep him if he's worth it... if he's not then we are in a great position cap wise to make some marginal moves.

I don't think the Clipper moves are similar to a potential Dunn move. Those guys had clear cut roles when they joined or were competing with other fringe players for minutes. Mann developed into his role, but that would be more akin to one of our own younger guys finding a spot.

Depth isn't bad, more is always better, but the Jazz major weakness is in the closing 5. Even in a world where Quin would be willing to play Dunn instead of JC (he won't), that's very impact compared to a starter level player who's playing 30+ minutes and closing games. The Jazz have that type of problem and if we don't address it we're setting up for another historic defensive failure.

I get why people are in love with this off season, but it baffles me this major and obvious issue continues to get ignored. We're obsessing over end of roster moves (which are important) when there's a major issue near the top. Smart would close games and play major minutes, especially in a playoff series. That is the type of change we should be obsessing over.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

With all that per diem he saves he is able to reinvest it into his lunches.

I mocked him mercilessly for the sandwich bags… he really re-used them.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don't think the Clipper moves are similar to a potential Dunn move. Those guys had clear cut roles when they joined or were competing with other fringe players for minutes. Mann developed into his role, but that would be more akin to one of our own younger guys finding a spot.

Depth isn't bad, more is always better, but the Jazz major weakness is in the closing 5. Even in a world where Quin would be willing to play Dunn instead of JC (he won't), that's very impact compared to a starter level player who's playing 30+ minutes and closing games. The Jazz have that type of problem and if we don't address it we're setting up for another historic defensive failure.

I get why people are in love with this off season, but it baffles me this major and obvious issue continues to get ignored. We're obsessing over end of roster moves (which are important) when there's a major issue near the top. Smart would close games and play major minutes, especially in a playoff series. That is the type of change we should be obsessing over.

I think Batum had a clear cut role for them that expanded as the season went on and injuries dictated. Jackson is very similar to Dunn imo... they had just brought on Kennard... still had Lou Will and Pat Bev. His minutes yo-yo'd at the beginning of the season as they were figuring out what worked. They thought they needed a floor general and even went out and added Rondo at the trade deadline... so RJ's role was not clear cut at all. They thought he might be useful, but it would have been reasonable to guess that he'd be out of the rotation at some point during the season if they were healthy. Very much like Dunn would be here.

Mann was a development surprise... but I use these guys as fringe roster additions that can change things for you. One of those types of moves isn't enough on its own... but as a whole they have a material effect on the season for sure. So when folks say "who cares player X is your 8th/9th man" it doesn't really work for me. Dunn might get mothballed like Rondo did... but he also might really help.

I agree with the overall assessment on Smart being better... definitely the preferred route from my perspective. I think Dunn could be a useful specialist because he is incredibly good at the thing he does well. If Butler isn't ready he'd be useful in managing the season and keeping DM, Mike, and Joe healthy through load management. If Quin doesn't have good options I don't see us willingly going into load management mode until it becomes injury management.

My line of thinking on Dunn is - If we are in the Clippers series and everything is going the way it was and the only thing that changed is we had a healthy Kris Dunn do I think Quin would use him? I do... Do I think it would matter? Yes I think it would. RJ was killing us... Dunn can help stem that tide. He might also be able to sneak in and disrupt some drives. He might have hurt us offensively but I might prefer him to Royce at times.

We've solved the frontcourt depth problems imo... the perimeter/guard depth issues are hopefully solved by Butler, Forrest, and decent health. Kind of a grab bag there. I agree Smart would be like a perfect solution theoretically. But I think Dunn is a really useful second option and if it only costs $7M extra I'd do it in a heart beat. Might be able to get a second rounder for your trouble. Boston may not make Smart available at all and if they did they might do better than JC.

If the Dunn acquisition had no impact it is either because he was hurt (that sucks) or because the team was healthy and/or Butler looks good... I think you'd be in a pretty good place if the latter is true. We need to make as many good bets as we can imo.

 

[Miggs]

Are the Celtics actively shopping Smart though? Has it been alluded to? Has he said he won’t re-sign when his contract is up? I’m asking because it feels fairly moot to even discuss him so much if the answer to all of those questions are no.

 

[infection]

Are the Celtics actively shopping Smart though? Has it been alluded to? Has he said he won’t re-sign when his contract is up? I’m asking because it feels fairly moot to even discuss him so much if the answer to all of those questions are no.

Mostly speculation and ongoing questions about extension. But there’s way more smoke about simply dumping Dunn, especially if they land DS.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Are the Celtics actively shopping Smart though? Has it been alluded to? Has he said he won’t re-sign when his contract is up? I’m asking because it feels fairly moot to even discuss him so much if the answer to all of those questions are no.

He's been in rumors for a year or so now. Actively shopping is probably strong... but if he won't sign an extension or they can't agree that is where it goes.

 

[KqWIN]

I think Batum had a clear cut role for them that expanded as the season went on and injuries dictated. Jackson is very similar to Dunn imo... they had just brought on Kennard... still had Lou Will and Pat Bev. His minutes yo-yo'd at the beginning of the season as they were figuring out what worked. They thought they needed a floor general and even went out and added Rondo at the trade deadline... so RJ's role was not clear cut at all. They thought he might be useful, but it would have been reasonable to guess that he'd be out of the rotation at some point during the season if they were healthy. Very much like Dunn would be here.

Mann was a development surprise... but I use these guys as fringe roster additions that can change things for you. One of those types of moves isn't enough on its own... but as a whole they have a material effect on the season for sure. So when folks say "who cares player X is your 8th/9th man" it doesn't really work for me. Dunn might get mothballed like Rondo did... but he also might really help.

I agree with the overall assessment on Smart being better... definitely the preferred route from my perspective. I think Dunn could be a useful specialist because he is incredibly good at the thing he does well. If Butler isn't ready he'd be useful in managing the season and keeping DM, Mike, and Joe healthy through load management. If Quin doesn't have good options I don't see us willingly going into load management mode until it becomes injury management.

My line of thinking on Dunn is - If we are in the Clippers series and everything is going the way it was and the only thing that changed is we had a healthy Kris Dunn do I think Quin would use him? I do... Do I think it would matter? Yes I think it would. RJ was killing us... Dunn can help stem that tide. He might also be able to sneak in and disrupt some drives. He might have hurt us offensively but I might prefer him to Royce at times.

We've solved the frontcourt depth problems imo... the perimeter/guard depth issues are hopefully solved by Butler, Forrest, and decent health. Kind of a grab bag there. I agree Smart would be like a perfect solution theoretically. But I think Dunn is a really useful second option and if it only costs $7M extra I'd do it in a heart beat. Might be able to get a second rounder for your trouble. Boston may not make Smart available at all and if they did they might do better than JC.

If the Dunn acquisition had no impact it is either because he was hurt (that sucks) or because the team was healthy and/or Butler looks good... I think you'd be in a pretty good place if the latter is true. We need to make as many good bets as we can imo.

RJ was playing 20 MPG the instant he got to LAC. They had a role for him right away. They brought Kennard in the next summer, but IMO that's not the same as Dunn because they brought in someone different at the same/higher level. That's where the biggest difference lies for me. Dunn is on the fringes whereas Reggie Jackson was a well established starting PG (with a big contract to back it up). The Clippers were stacking their roster with proven rotation/starter caliber guys. Adding Dunn would be adding a player that's clearly below the players that are currently in the rotation. I don't believe he's close to Clarkson/Ingles, which is who he would have to take minutes from.

And again, I'm not saying players 10-15 don't matter or that it's not important. I just think it's significantly less important than the guys who play 30+ minutes and can potentially close games for you. The Jazz have a massive problem at that level. The problem/solution is our key players. For example, I don't think Gay replacing Niang is going to change much even though he is better defensively. But I do think Gay overtaking Bogey could change things. I think Gay could potentially be an alternative to Bogey, but I don't think Dunn is a true alternative to Clarkson. I doubt Quin would ever sit a healthy JC for a healthy Dunn. If we theoretically brought in someone like Justin Holiday....that level of player is someone who I think could be a real alternative to JC but for me Dunn is below that.

If Ryan want's to spend a boatload of money to have Dunn instead of the grab bag of young players (Oni, Brantley ect) that's his choice and it's not my money. But I'm not sure that's the better option. If the Clippers had dumped Mann for a vet that would have obviously been a big mistake. Mann doesn't happen if he doesn't have a roster spot. Personally, I'd prefer to have Oni/Brantley on the roster because of that potential. I think it's a better value add than whatever Dunn (or any other fringe vet) might provide for us.

 

[infection]

RJ was playing 20 MPG the instant he got to LAC. They had a role for him right away. They brought Kennard in the next summer, but IMO that's not the same as Dunn because they brought in someone different at the same/higher level. That's where the biggest difference lies for me. Dunn is on the fringes whereas Reggie Jackson was a well established starting PG (with a big contract to back it up). The Clippers were stacking their roster with proven rotation/starter caliber guys. Adding Dunn would be adding a player that's clearly below the players that are currently in the rotation. I don't believe he's close to Clarkson/Ingles, which is who he would have to take minutes from.

And again, I'm not saying players 10-15 don't matter or that it's not important. I just think it's significantly less important than the guys who play 30+ minutes and can potentially close games for you. The Jazz have a massive problem at that level. The problem/solution is our key players. For example, I don't think Gay replacing Niang is going to change much even though he is better defensively. But I do think Gay overtaking Bogey could change things. I think Gay could potentially be an alternative to Bogey, but I don't think Dunn is a true alternative to Clarkson. I doubt Quin would ever sit a healthy JC for a healthy Dunn. If we theoretically brought in someone like Justin Holiday....that level of player is someone who I think could be a real alternative to JC but for me Dunn is below that.

If Ryan want's to spend a boatload of money to have Dunn instead of the grab bag of young players (Oni, Brantley ect) that's his choice and it's not my money. But I'm not sure that's the better option. If the Clippers had dumped Mann for a vet that would have obviously been a big mistake. Mann doesn't happen if he doesn't have a roster spot. Personally, I'd prefer to have Oni/Brantley on the roster because of that potential. I think it's a better value add than whatever Dunn (or any other fringe vet) might provide for us.

I see what you’re saying, I just don’t think we’ll be making those changes, so I see this as an alternative that may have a bit more benefit than you’d expect. I see it as a win-win where we’re either healthy and have a better chance of weathering those storms, or we have health/foul issues and have some different looks available.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

RJ was playing 20 MPG the instant he got to LAC. They had a role for him right away. They brought Kennard in the next summer, but IMO that's not the same as Dunn because they brought in someone different at the same/higher level. That's where the biggest difference lies for me. Dunn is on the fringes whereas Reggie Jackson was a well established starting PG (with a big contract to back it up). The Clippers were stacking their roster with proven rotation/starter caliber guys. Adding Dunn would be adding a player that's clearly below the players that are currently in the rotation. I don't believe he's close to Clarkson/Ingles, which is who he would have to take minutes from.

And again, I'm not saying players 10-15 don't matter or that it's not important. I just think it's significantly less important than the guys who play 30+ minutes and can potentially close games for you. The Jazz have a massive problem at that level. The problem/solution is our key players. For example, I don't think Gay replacing Niang is going to change much even though he is better defensively. But I do think Gay overtaking Bogey could change things. I think Gay could potentially be an alternative to Bogey, but I don't think Dunn is a true alternative to Clarkson. I doubt Quin would ever sit a healthy JC for a healthy Dunn. If we theoretically brought in someone like Justin Holiday....that level of player is someone who I think could be a real alternative to JC but for me Dunn is below that.

If Ryan want's to spend a boatload of money to have Dunn instead of the grab bag of young players (Oni, Brantley ect) that's his choice and it's not my money. But I'm not sure that's the better option. If the Clippers had dumped Mann for a vet that would have obviously been a big mistake. Mann doesn't happen if he doesn't have a roster spot. Personally, I'd prefer to have Oni/Brantley on the roster because of that potential. I think it's a better value add than whatever Dunn (or any other fringe vet) might provide for us.

When RJ came back this year his role was very much in flux. More established than Dunn but Dunn is a good established player when healthy. If healthy he is not a fringe guy at all. RJ was closer to the fringes in fact... he signed a minimum deal with the clips to start the season and considered just hanging it up as basketball wasn't fun anymore... Dunn got a 2 year 10M deal last year but never got healthy. I'd say they are in similar tiers though they have opposite skills and offense is more important than defense with guards imo. I don't see it as much different.

Mann was a better prospect than Oni and had shown more as a rookie imo. Showed little to no improvement this year as Mann broke out. I think the chance that Oni or Brantley become anything resembling Mann are slim to none. IF we churned those spots and found some young guy with potential that is another story.

Dunn is a flier, but the thing he is elite at is our biggest need. If he's healthy and sneaks into the lineup for 5-6 games because of injury he may show it could work well here and we could then move JC or maybe the injury issue subsides and Dunn's trade value increases and you could flip him elsewhere. Or he spends a year in the program... plays a bit and proves to be a solid backup and we use his bird rights to keep him when Ingles rides into the sunset.

It comes down to money... but Dunn is about as good of a bet as you could make imo. I prefer a straight swap of JC for Smart... outside of that I am not sure there is a reasonable deal that balances the roster without a big risk of hurting the offense. That market is super duper limited.

If Dunn is healthy I prefer him to Holiday but they are very different players.

Mixing in Gay/Dunn/Whiteside may help improve the defense enough to get us where we need to go. The margins are pretty thin. I think last year wasn't a full fledged fluke but it was definitely exaggerated by the fact that Donovan and Mike were both on one leg or out. So healthy Donovan/Mike, fresher Joe (because we manage him for once), plus the other small rotation adjustments should be enough imo. If Mike and Donovan are healthy we likely win the clips series. If we also had Gay in Niang's minutes I like our chances a lot more. If the current group met the current clips sans Kawhi I think we win.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Its also a deal you would need to do now... if Dunn ends up playing 20 minutes a night and looks healthy then he likely plays himself into a spot where he's an asset. It is a buy low situation as @infection mentioned. If someone gets hurt and we now need to do a deal then the cost goes up to where it may not get done. I love Butler and am comfortable relying on him as an option for the load management nights... but even I can recognize an established vet who is elite at the thing we sorely lack is almost surely going to be a better option.