Kris Dunn

[KqWIN]

The RJ situation is exactly what I said it is… look it up.

The rest… whatevs I guess… I don’t see how replacing Bogey with Anderson rocks our world and is life changing event but swapping some Niang minutes and maybe some bogey minutes for Gay and JC minutes for Dunn is a meh sandwich. It all matters.

You are underselling Dunn. Oni might be a 3 and D guy but right now neither part of that equation is working. He also looks terrified to dribble. When Dunn is healthy he would be our best perimeter defender.

I looked it up and all I could find is "Reggie Jackson is expected to play a prominent role". And he did. Whatever, it doesn't matter. Literally does not add anything to this conversation.

I don't see Dunn as an alternative to JC...to me that's incredibly unlikely. Maybe I'm underselling him, but I don't think they are close to the same class of player. With Quin coaching, that is even less likely.

I do think Bogey for Anderson is a significant change. Those are two drastically different players who would be playing major minutes and closing games. 35+ in the playoffs likely. You want your best guys playing close to 40. That gives you the best chance to win. The main reason why rotations get cut short in the playoffs is not a lack of depth, but a desire to play your best players more minutes.

Obviously Gay becomes a bigger factor the more minutes he plays. If he starts to replace Bogey, particularly in closing lineups, that is the change I'm talking about. But we'll see what his role ends up being. The thought of him replacing Bogey is wishful thinking from me...both that he will be good enough for us to want to sit Bogey and that Quin will be willing to play him.

I'm curious to see how this all works offensively. I know I sound like a broken record...but there are going to have to be some drastic changes in the way guys play next year. Maybe it's more subtle and everyone plays with less usage...however it gets resolved I'm not sure it's a better look for the team.

 

[NAOS]

I mocked him mercilessly for the sandwich bags… he really re-used them.

They’re plastic. We should re-use the **** out of them. They can be washed.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

They’re plastic. We should re-use the **** out of them. They can be washed.

If it was an environment thing I’d have supported him… it was a save money thing… there are like 10 other things he did which were truly amazing.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I looked it up and all I could find is "Reggie Jackson is expected to play a prominent role". And he did. Whatever, it doesn't matter. Literally does not add anything to this conversation.

I don't see Dunn as an alternative to JC...to me that's incredibly unlikely. Maybe I'm underselling him, but I don't think they are close to the same class of player. With Quin coaching, that is even less likely.

I do think Bogey for Anderson is a significant change. Those are two drastically different players who would be playing major minutes and closing games. 35+ in the playoffs likely. You want your best guys playing close to 40. That gives you the best chance to win. The main reason why rotations get cut short in the playoffs is not a lack of depth, but a desire to play your best players more minutes.

Obviously Gay becomes a bigger factor the more minutes he plays. If he starts to replace Bogey, particularly in closing lineups, that is the change I'm talking about. But we'll see what his role ends up being. The thought of him replacing Bogey is wishful thinking from me...both that he will be good enough for us to want to sit Bogey and that Quin will be willing to play him.

I'm curious to see how this all works offensively. I know I sound like a broken record...but there are going to have to be some drastic changes in the way guys play next year. Maybe it's more subtle and everyone plays with less usage...however it gets resolved I'm not sure it's a better look for the team.

You looked up the Woj tweet… which comes from Jackson’s agent… I looked for 30 seconds and you can see a post from a clips writer stating that they aren’t sure what role he will have after being benched in the playoffs and the new addition. It matters because you keep saying that it’s different than a Dunn acquisition because he had a clear role…HE DID NOT. It’s obvious they brought him back because it was a minimum and they figured why not since it’s a minimum. He was in and out of the rotation to start the season. They signed ****ing Patrick Patterson before him. If he was offered more than the minimum elsewhere the clips were going to let him walk… the assessment becomes very similar to what we are doing with Dunn… “Do we really want to pay a player 5M who isn’t going to have an obvious role and is insurance?”.

We shall see what happens… I’m good either way and think the Jazz did much more to address needs than you think. Am not concerned about usage and role for Gay. He is a much better player than Niang. Niang was solid on defense but not forceful at all… in the playoffs he wasn’t nearly as good and his one dimensional nature caught up with him. The clips series was a disaster for him. Gay gives us the option to replace an additional 5 or so Bogey minutes as well. The main lineup is one of the best lineups in basketball, but when 40% of that lineup is hurt to a point they probably shouldn’t play they will be significantly worse. Every move on the margins can have a big impact.

We shall see.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Lets say the trade is Hughes for Dunn... with no draft compensation going either place (I think we could get a second rounder in the deal).

It comes down to the difference of would you rather pay $20M ish for Dunn or $8M ish for Hughes. You could also cut some money elsewhere if you made this type of deal... but we could do that either way by waiving Oni and Brantley and carrying 13 guys for the maximum allotted time during the season. You churn 10 day guys in this case and get to mine for gold a bit.

$12M is a lot... but the mega markets are paying six figure tax bills to win a title. We have about as good of a shot at a title as we will ever have... I would likely do it. I think you can find 10 minutes in the regular rotation by cutting a few minutes from Ingles, Mike, and Royce... then you can find even more when one of those guys are load managed. If it isn't having any effect you abandon a $12M experiment. If it works well you have some optionality to move on from JC and get yourself something different and maybe get some salary flexibility in the process.

I love Butler and would like to see him out there some... the Dunn deal has some upside though that is tantalizing and relying on rookies is a dangerous game. If Dunn comes in healthy and gets on the floor for Boston he quickly becomes an asset at his price and contract duration. I have a hard time seeing us do any better with our TPE than Dunn.

In either case I would cut Brantley and look to dump Hughes and sign someone else to a minimum. I'd consider waiving Oni if you couldn't dump Hughes. I just don't see any upside to having those guys on one year deals with what they have shown thus far. I'd rather get solid vets on 1+1 deals like Darius Miller or take a flier on Frankie Smokes... but I definitely get a team option on the second year if I go this route.

 

[KqWIN]

You looked up the Woj tweet… which comes from Jackson’s agent… I looked for 30 seconds and you can see a post from a clips writer stating that they aren’t sure what role he will have after being benched in the playoffs and the new addition. It matters because you keep saying that it’s different than a Dunn acquisition because he had a clear role…HE DID NOT. It’s obvious they brought him back because it was a minimum and they figured why not since it’s a minimum. He was in and out of the rotation to start the season. They signed ****ing Patrick Patterson before him. If he was offered more than the minimum elsewhere the clips were going to let him walk… the assessment becomes very similar to what we are doing with Dunn… “Do we really want to pay a player 5M who isn’t going to have an obvious role and is insurance?”.

We shall see what happens… I’m good either way and think the Jazz did much more to address needs than you think. Am not concerned about usage and role for Gay. He is a much better player than Niang. Niang was solid on defense but not forceful at all… in the playoffs he wasn’t nearly as good and his one dimensional nature caught up with him. The clips series was a disaster for him. Gay gives us the option to replace an additional 5 or so Bogey minutes as well. The main lineup is one of the best lineups in basketball, but when 40% of that lineup is hurt to a point they probably shouldn’t play they will be significantly worse. Every move on the margins can have a big impact.

We shall see.

It means nothing because whether or not Jackson had a clear role or not, it has nothing to do with Dunn. If I listed out vets that didn't seem to have a role and never ended up having a role does that really make a difference? Likewise I could list out younger players that didn't have a role who ended up with a role. You can find an anecdotal example or counter example for anythign. Whether or not Jackson truly had a role or not does not influence my thinking here.

As for the question of do we really want to pay a player $5M who doesn't have a role? That is not something I can answer. It's not my money. I've said it over and over. I don't really care if Ryan Smith spends his own money. But I'm at the point with Dunn that independent of money, I'd rather have a younger player instead. Sacrificing offense for defense is something I think we should do, but I don't think Quin will play someone who can't shoot. Dunn has established himself on the defensive end but he's also established himself as someone who can't shoot. I believe in Oni's shot more, which is why he has a more realistic pathway to playing. Either way, I don't really mind. It's a tossup and I'm not paying for it. The actual decision makers will have to pay for it, however, and I think you can see how slanted that decision comes.

Better health will help for sure. If that's what pushes us over the edge, maybe this issue was never a big deal in the first place. I'm more skeptical because the guys who injured were bad in the first place and when they missed games a better defender (Ingles) was playing instead of them. In the final two games we got blasted with our best players on the court. Ultimately I believe talent will win out and am hopeful Gay will be an upgrade at both the backup 4&5 at a minimum. He will help and that matters, but the key issue I see with our main lineup persists.

We'll see. I've been on record saying that if Quin was a better coach, we would have easily beaten the Clippers given the respective injury situations. I don't think we maximized the talent available and hopefully we have better health, but this year will also be a much different challenge. Even if we are significantly better, I think the competition will be better in a (hopefully) non covid year.

 

[infection]

Lets say the trade is Hughes for Dunn... with no draft compensation going either place (I think we could get a second rounder in the deal).

It comes down to the difference of would you rather pay $20M ish for Dunn or $8M ish for Hughes. You could also cut some money elsewhere if you made this type of deal... but we could do that either way by waiving Oni and Brantley and carrying 13 guys for the maximum allotted time during the season. You churn 10 day guys in this case and get to mine for gold a bit.

$12M is a lot... but the mega markets are paying six figure tax bills to win a title. We have about as good of a shot at a title as we will ever have... I would likely do it. I think you can find 10 minutes in the regular rotation by cutting a few minutes from Ingles, Mike, and Royce... then you can find even more when one of those guys are load managed. If it isn't having any effect you abandon a $12M experiment. If it works well you have some optionality to move on from JC and get yourself something different and maybe get some salary flexibility in the process.

I love Butler and would like to see him out there some... the Dunn deal has some upside though that is tantalizing and relying on rookies is a dangerous game. If Dunn comes in healthy and gets on the floor for Boston he quickly becomes an asset at his price and contract duration. I have a hard time seeing us do any better with our TPE than Dunn.

In either case I would cut Brantley and look to dump Hughes and sign someone else to a minimum. I'd consider waiving Oni if you couldn't dump Hughes. I just don't see any upside to having those guys on one year deals with what they have shown thus far. I'd rather get solid vets on 1+1 deals like Darius Miller or take a flier on Frankie Smokes... but I definitely get a team option on the second year if I go this route.

I think shaving a few minutes from Royce is also an important part. He can play in that role. Royce played 38 minutes in the Clippers series. That's not necessarily bad, but give a few minutes to Dunn to keep Royce fresh and keep him guarding the guys he should be guarding rather than burning that energy on guys that aren't the ideal defensive match for him. Doing that would make us look better both on the small perimeter guys + better on the guys Royce guards because he can focus his efforts more specifically.

 

[infection]

We'll see. I've been on record saying that if Quin was a better coach, we would have easily beaten the Clippers given the respective injury situations. I don't think we maximized the talent available and hopefully we have better health, but this year will also be a much different challenge. Even if we are significantly better, I think the competition will be better in a (hopefully) non covid year.

I think the roster flexibility was one decent sized variable in why we lost the Clippers series. I think health is another. Coaching is the third side of this that I find inexcusable because I don't believe the first two issues alone were enough to have us flame out the way we did. Better coaching gets us at least to game 7. At minimum.

 

[KqWIN]

I think the roster flexibility was one decent sized variable in why we lost the Clippers series. I think health is another. Coaching is the third side of this that I find inexcusable because I don't believe the first two issues alone were enough to have us flame out the way we did. Better coaching gets us at least to game 7. At minimum.

As bad as it was, if we replay that series starting at 2-2 I think we win 8/10 times. If Quin was a better coach I think we should win close to every time.

I do think we need more roster versatility...I think we need it to a much larger degree. Having and Ersan or Oni type in your back pocket is one thing, but it would be different if you had a guy at Clarkson's level to go to instead of Bogey (or vice versa). I'm not against Dunn or the smaller moves...but it is a lot of $$$ so I don't really see it happening. I just really wanted the big move this year.

 

[infection]

As bad as it was, if we replay that series starting at 2-2 I think we win 8/10 times. If Quin was a better coach I think we should win close to every time.

I do think we need more roster versatility...I think we need it to a much larger degree. Having and Ersan or Oni type in your back pocket is one thing, but it would be different if you had a guy at Clarkson's level to go to instead of Bogey (or vice versa). I'm not against Dunn or the smaller moves...but it is a lot of $$$ so I don't really see it happening. I just really wanted the big move this year.

Yeah, I don't think the odds of us losing that series was that high and you'd likely have a different outcome if you were to play it again. Quin's a good coach, but there are some glaring blind spots. Between DL's stupidity and the health issues, it allowed the stars to align to put Quin in a position to **** it up. And he ****ed it up. I don't expect him to change much (I would hope so, but I'm not getting my hopes up), so the hope is to have enough good play over 43 minutes that we can keep Quin out of those situations.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It means nothing because whether or not Jackson had a clear role or not, it has nothing to do with Dunn. If I listed out vets that didn't seem to have a role and never ended up having a role does that really make a difference? Likewise I could list out younger players that didn't have a role who ended up with a role. You can find an anecdotal example or counter example for anythign. Whether or not Jackson truly had a role or not does not influence my thinking here.

As for the question of do we really want to pay a player $5M who doesn't have a role? That is not something I can answer. It's not my money. I've said it over and over. I don't really care if Ryan Smith spends his own money. But I'm at the point with Dunn that independent of money, I'd rather have a younger player instead. Sacrificing offense for defense is something I think we should do, but I don't think Quin will play someone who can't shoot. Dunn has established himself on the defensive end but he's also established himself as someone who can't shoot. I believe in Oni's shot more, which is why he has a more realistic pathway to playing. Either way, I don't really mind. It's a tossup and I'm not paying for it. The actual decision makers will have to pay for it, however, and I think you can see how slanted that decision comes.

Better health will help for sure. If that's what pushes us over the edge, maybe this issue was never a big deal in the first place. I'm more skeptical because the guys who injured were bad in the first place and when they missed games a better defender (Ingles) was playing instead of them. In the final two games we got blasted with our best players on the court. Ultimately I believe talent will win out and am hopeful Gay will be an upgrade at both the backup 4&5 at a minimum. He will help and that matters, but the key issue I see with our main lineup persists.

We'll see. I've been on record saying that if Quin was a better coach, we would have easily beaten the Clippers given the respective injury situations. I don't think we maximized the talent available and hopefully we have better health, but this year will also be a much different challenge. Even if we are significantly better, I think the competition will be better in a (hopefully) non covid year.

Examples are important and RJ is a clear example of a guy coming in that is a "non-key" guy to start the season that becomes a key player. If they don't add Batum or Jackson we win that series no sweat. I don't know that before the season you would look at the clippers roster and say "Batum and RJ are key guys to where this team ends up in the post season". Which is likely to be the case if we brought Dunn in. I'm more irked that I give an example and you do "well actually that's not a good example" and it clearly is... then we go to "well examples don't matter". Okay.

You just don't like Dunn which is fine. You maybe should just start with I don't like Dunn... but its weird to go "meh" on Dunn while singing the praises of Kyle Anderson... you know they are approximately the same type of shooters right? Going from Bogey to Anderson is a huge, huge downgrade in shooting that will be felt for sure. If Mike and Don are so bad on defense will it really matter that he gets 30 minutes while Dunn would only get 15 maybe? If Quin is not going to play non-shooters like Dunn 15 minutes a game to spell Joe/Mike/Royce/DM... is he really gonna be excited about Anderson's iffy shooting in his "key" lineups. Dunn and Anderson are different defenders for sure but they both do similar things we need help with.

The money matters but if Ryan is presented with a sure opportunity to piss $7-8M down the drain with Hughes or place a $20M bet with a much higher potential to get an on court return then he might be persuaded.

 

[NAOS]

Examples are important and RJ is a clear example of a guy coming in that is a "non-key" guy to start the season that becomes a key player. If they don't add Batum or Jackson we win that series no sweat. I don't know that before the season you would look at the clippers roster and say "Batum and RJ are key guys to where this team ends up in the post season". Which is likely to be the case if we brought Dunn in. I'm more irked that I give an example and you do "well actually that's not a good example" and it clearly is... then we go to "well examples don't matter". Okay.

You just don't like Dunn which is fine. You maybe should just start with I don't like Dunn... but its weird to go "meh" on Dunn while singing the praises of Kyle Anderson... you know they are approximately the same type of shooters right? Going from Bogey to Anderson is a huge, huge downgrade in shooting that will be felt for sure. If Mike and Don are so bad on defense will it really matter that he gets 30 minutes while Dunn would only get 15 maybe? If Quin is not going to play non-shooters like Dunn 15 minutes a game to spell Joe/Mike/Royce/DM... is he really gonna be excited about Anderson's iffy shooting in his "key" lineups. Dunn and Anderson are different defenders for sure but they both do similar things we need help with.

The money matters but if Ryan is presented with a sure opportunity to piss $7-8M down the drain with Hughes or place a $20M bet with a much higher potential to get an on court return then he might be persuaded.

Nah... his moaning has the be tldr.