Las Vegas: Worst Mass Shooting in US History

[babe]

You have been consistent on Trump as this honest arbiter for the greater good, but are shifting in specifically what that means.

In particular, you have previously described him as someone who isn't interested in political ideology, but who wholeheartedly believes in the Constitution and will do whatever it takes to return us to a Constitutional form of government. That position is no longer tenable so you have "evolved" you fantasy as to who Trump is, still describing him as "too smart." I think we're pretty close to the point where you're going to have to evolve out of that position, as well.

Love ya, babe.

My recent crusade against noise was at no point directed towards you. Although I think you talk outside the point, and I also think you often bring slanders that don't belong against the people you disagree with (me, I'm sensitive), you are attempting to say something. It is hard to understand... often. It is not directly related to the specific discussion... often. But I want to make clear that I hold you in a different, much higher regard than I do the likes of Boris. With Dutch, it's more an annoyance with what I see as an intentional effort to disrupt meaningful discussion. I bet he has interesting things to say, but he's more interested in making noise and repetitive, meaningless comments than engaging with people.

I will try to be more respectful to you. I think I have acted beneath myself in my interactions with you for some time. Not to say I will be nice. But I will make an effort to understand what you are saying and respond in a substantive way.

Well, thank you for a substantiative response with clarifications.

My first notion of Trump when he first announced his candiadacy was along the lines that I thought he was "Hillary's Perot". For those who don't know, Bill Clinton defeated GHW Bush's bid for a second term because a cantankerous Texan who hated GHWB ran as a third party, dividing Republican votes principally. Trump, I knew, had contributed a lot of money to the Clintons, and hobnobbed with them. He even called them to give them advance notice of his candidacy. Another self-financed "Republican" dividing the Republicans looked to me like the same play. I would have voted for almost any of the 16 candidates except Jeb.

I've always considered Trump "non-ideological". I believe Roger Stone, a devout antagonist of CFR establishment men, was influential with Trump to get him to run, and supply him with some points about what needed to be done to "Make America Great Again". I was pleased with the Gorsuch nomination basically because of the kind of thinking I thought Gorsuch represented, though I suspect him of having ties enough with establishment folks.

When I refer to anyone as "too smart" I use the term rhetorically as a synonym for self-centered pride, often somewhat justified. But always flawed, as in "not as smart as babe", LOL.

And yes, I'm disappointed in much of what Trump has done so far, and it looks to me like he will make little difference in the way things are....

I'm also really disappointed about Jason Chaffetz quitting and Gov. Herbert anointing Curtis as his replacement. I might vote democratic on this one.....nah... I'll do the Libertarian this time.

 

[babe]

Do you have anything to back that up? Or just your opinion? Stats (I know you dont believe in those but...) have shown lower gun ownership or gun control directly equals less gun violence and suicides. It even keeps cops more safe, since states with less gun ownership have less cops shot in the line of duty.

Are you grouping me as a 2nd-Ammendment denier? I am a gun owner and do not think guns should be taken away. I guess we could discuss what the second amendment even means since it is only recently that it has been changed from its original meaning of militia gun rights to mean individual gun rights. A push that took conservative groups a long time to change the meaning of and get it passed in court.

Honestly I think you and Archie would really enjoy watching the Adam ruins everything episode on conspiracies. I am all for conspiracy theories or at least exposing corruption and problems assuming there is solid evidence that is well researched before putting harmful information out there, that you cannot take back.

yah, the post you responded to was totally unhinged personal opinion, spruced out as originally as I could craft it. I know BP regularly downs CT stuff, as you have been doing, but I recognize that he does have a stand in favor of gun users who are willing to play by the rules. I had no idea where you come down on that issue.... so of course, I am pretty much talking about the politicians like Nancy Pelosi who sometimes lack the temerity to deny they'd really love to see all the guns gone as in the UN sort of future world of totally regulated armies and police being the exclusive club of responsible and accountable gun toters.

And whatever the CT ilk of the day may be, it is the vision of humanity unable to command a little respect from their rulers that fuels their suspicions....

 

[Ron Mexico]

I'm also really disappointed about Jason Chaffetz quitting and Gov. Herbert anointing Curtis as his replacement. I might vote democratic on this one.....nah... I'll do the Libertarian this time.

What's your beef with Curtis? He was a great mayor in Provo. He was very transparent and involved which are two traits I appreciate. Having personally met him multiple times he seems like an pretty upstanding person.

I do fear he has decided to push the Republican platform now, based on his latest campaign adds. I assume getting support and funding depend on that. He is running in the most red area in a very red state though. The only way to win that position is to be a staunch Republican. More people straight ticket vote Republican than people who vote anything else traditionally.

If it has to be a Republican Mormon to win that position I think he is one of the better options. And it definitely has to be a Mormon Republican to win that seat.

 

[babe]

What's your beef with Curtis? He was a great mayor in Provo. He was very transparent and involved which are two traits I appreciate. Having personally met him multiple times he seems like an pretty upstanding person.

I do fear he has decided to push the Republican platform now, based on his latest campaign adds. I assume getting support and funding depend on that. He is running in the most red area in a very red state though. The only way to win that position is to be a staunch Republican. More people straight ticket vote Republican than people who vote anything else traditionally.

If it has to be a Republican Mormon to win that position I think he is one of the better options. And it definitely has to be a Mormon Republican to win that seat.

He's really a democrat pretending to be R, as in RINO all the way. Smooth enough to say whatever it'll take to collect all those dimwitted trusting Mo R voters. I think he's as phoney as a 3$ bill. I've known a few "people people" who can read you like an open book and tell anyone whatever they want to hear.

I like the awkward, tongue-tied sort of politician who will vote the way his people expect. . . .

my wife was a lobbyist some years ago around the UT legislature, was surprised he switched R when he moved, said he really hasn't changed at all.

 

[Ron Mexico]

He's really a democrat pretending to be R, as in RINO all the way. Smooth enough to say whatever it'll take to collect all those dimwitted trusting Mo R voters. I think he's as phoney as a 3$ bill. I've known a few "people people" who can read you like an open book and tell anyone whatever they want to hear.

I like the awkward, tongue-tied sort of politician who will vote the way his people expect. . . .

my wife was a lobbyist some years ago around the UT legislature, was surprised he switched R when he moved, said he really hasn't changed at all.

Hmm, I would not call for phony but I guess to each there own. He was very open and genuine person as mayor.

As far as being a secret Democrat, maybe. Although I think more likely he is just about person with beliefs that overlap both parties. He had chosen to run Republican since that is the only option to win. I mean you wouldn't want someone who is so brainwashed by politics they 100% believe in 1 party being correct on all the issues right?

Most of the political side of issues don't come up as mayor since they aren't something a mayor needs to deal with. I appreciate that he left politics aside as mayor. What did come up is that he cared about his people no matter their side and showed up to lots of events. His financial decisions were great for the city and business, those decisions were very conservative in nature.

Sounds like we have opposite concerns about him. You think he is a smooth talking Democrat pretending to be a Republican. I think he is a person who isn't in a party but a conservative by nature who is giving into financial pressure to push Republican issues. I'm probably hoping you are right on this one.

I find it odd you want someone who can't talk well. Doing what your constituents want and talking well are not mutually exclusive. As mayor he listened to his citizens more than any politician I have ever seen. He read everything people wrote to him and replied. Often changing course. In fact he just looked into changing squaw peaks name because of repeated emails about it.

Although again I hope you are right on this one. Since I hope he doesn't just do what people want since I disagree with most of what the Utah county folk want.

A mayor he ignored the social issues in politics since they really don't belong in politics anyways. I'm hoping he continues that trend and focuses on similar issues.

 

[Ron Mexico]

...

 

[babe]

I believed Chaffetz was more of a pretend R because he was hatched out from under Gov. Huntsman's wings, as was Gov. Herbert. Smart dude, and in many respects a good Gov, Huntsman's dad was in the chemical/oil biz and a sort of CFR product of the late great Armand Hammer. My biggest beef with Huntsman as Gov was that he cooked a deal with Nev. Sen. Harry Reid to divvy up Utah water, letting Las Vegas drill wells in Utah's desert mining for irreplaceable water. I believe that's why he got the nod for Ambassador from Obama/Reid. In short, willing to sell out Utah to feather his nest.

I lived next door to KSL radio's Doug Wright's mama many years ago, when he was a disk jockey on a local hot radio station. I saw him come and go visiting his mama, and listened to him sometimes. When he picked up the gig on KSL, replacing Bob Lee as the lead morning talk host, I was a solid Lee fan. I heard just enough to know Lee was dumped for original if not maverick political views, too independent for the CFR-associated management at KSL. Utah lost a truly great non-partisan and fair-minded analyst who insisted on honesty in everything, and got a slick oily schmoozer who can be counted on to keep his finger wetted and wagging in the wind to figure out which views to express. Not concerned with real people but the management so to speak....

When I see Doug Wright get up on his soapbox for anyone, I go the other way.

My wife believes Curtis is a solid liberal who will run with the RINO pack. I looked at his statements on gun rights, ACA, jobs(border), and some others to make the same conclusion. Lots of very smart folks will plant themselves solidly in front of any political wave and ride it through an election, then come home with clever explanations why "moderate" positions are the sensible ones when in fact they are actually "progressives".

Orrin Hatch has surprised me a bit lately. I used to think he was just that phony, too. Even Mike Lee is not all I would want, what with his votes on banking issues and the Fed.... for all his gesticulating Constitutionalism.

Mia Love is just too dumb not to be oh so nice to the progressives sometimes, and Bishop is too much in the pocket for the military. I suppose in his district he has to be, but no, Utah does not have a real conservative in the DC political fire.

My wife has been a solid R for years, having been on the party organization in some posts enough many Rs just know who she is. I was never an R. She tells her friends I'm a "socialist" because I collect stuff on politics from some folks who believe Government should be leading mankind into a "Rose Garden" of technological and infrastructural progress.... although pretty much the exact opposite sort of program from the CFR cavemen advocating a return to the idyllic life we had before we invented the wheel or fire, as I think most "progressives" and "socialists" are doing today.... lol.

I like the Chinese and Russians for not being Brit stooges and American serfs, and for being on board with the new Silk Road. I like Trump for wanting that kind of world, too.

About the only claim I have to being a "conservative" is my view that human rights vis a vis government power as held out by the US Constitution are a good start towards real human liberty. Of course, people as a community/state/nation should have real power to cut their own path and work together on those scales doing stuff that can make life better, but I am suspicious of people who are ambitious for power through government office.

The biggest beef I have with Curtis was his gloating , bragging dismissal of his opponents, I think including Trumpster out-of-state PACs. I know his chief opponent in the primary was a solid genuine man, Chris Herrod, who was, in my analysis, beat because of the third candidate(basketball star's bro Tanner Ainge who I'd call a phony conservative) dividing the conservative vote, and a lot of crossover voters coming out for Curtis.

I'm looking for Herrod to primary Curtis out of his job in two years. Chris Herrod is a Mike Lee-quality conservative. I doubt I could discuss the Silk Road with him, but he does have some level of international perspective because of his time in Russia.

 

[Ron Mexico]

I believed Chaffetz was more of a pretend R because he was hatched out from under Gov. Huntsman's wings, as was Gov. Herbert. Smart dude, and in many respects a good Gov, Huntsman's dad was in the chemical/oil biz and a sort of CFR product of the late great Armand Hammer. My biggest beef with Huntsman as Gov was that he cooked a deal with Nev. Sen. Harry Reid to divvy up Utah water, letting Las Vegas drill wells in Utah's desert mining for irreplaceable water. I believe that's why he got the nod for Ambassador from Obama/Reid. In short, willing to sell out Utah to feather his nest.

I lived next door to KSL radio's Doug Wright's mama many years ago, when he was a disk jockey on a local hot radio station. I saw him come and go visiting his mama, and listened to him sometimes. When he picked up the gig on KSL, replacing Bob Lee as the lead morning talk host, I was a solid Lee fan. I heard just enough to know Lee was dumped for original if not maverick political views, too independent for the CFR-associated management at KSL. Utah lost a truly great non-partisan and fair-minded analyst who insisted on honesty in everything, and got a slick oily schmoozer who can be counted on to keep his finger wetted and wagging in the wind to figure out which views to express. Not concerned with real people but the management so to speak....

When I see Doug Wright get up on his soapbox for anyone, I go the other way.

My wife believes Curtis is a solid liberal who will run with the RINO pack. I looked at his statements on gun rights, ACA, jobs(border), and some others to make the same conclusion. Lots of very smart folks will plant themselves solidly in front of any political wave and ride it through an election, then come home with clever explanations why "moderate" positions are the sensible ones when in fact they are actually "progressives".

Orrin Hatch has surprised me a bit lately. I used to think he was just that phony, too. Even Mike Lee is not all I would want, what with his votes on banking issues and the Fed.... for all his gesticulating Constitutionalism.

Mia Love is just too dumb not to be oh so nice to the progressives sometimes, and Bishop is too much in the pocket for the military. I suppose in his district he has to be, but no, Utah does not have a real conservative in the DC political fire.

I'll say interesting takes and assessments. I disagree with most of those but it's not really worth delving into.

What is a true conservative and who is a true conservative?

 

[babe]

My grandpa, a devout Dem, was once recruited by local businessmen to lead their R ticket. Boy did he tell them where to get off that train.

I understood my dad was an R, what with being a big in a MIC corporate traveling to oversee operations around the country. He was impressed favorably with Harry Reid early in Reid's career, and he had important Dem political connections, but he was always just practical, common sense "Let's get things done right" sorta like Trump.

I don't think "conservative" is much of a virtue-signaling badge except that for a lot of people it is more associated with limited governance and the traditional "American" ideals. Certainly, in most countries it would not stand for human rights. In American usage it is advanced covertly to signal "I'm not a Rockefeller Republican", "I actually like America", and some other stuff most people won't openly articulate.

So, anyway. it's a poor communicator term for some things alright. Too easy to claim, to vague to define.

In my tirade above, in reference to Chris Herrod and Mike Lee, I think it respectively stands for integrity to Utah political norms, and integrity towards Constitutional principles, respectively. In Herrod's case, the practical implication is favorable to Trump agenda items like repealing the ACA, gun rights' advocacy to the extent of "Constitutional Carry" meaning no need for a CCP actually but not denying the good effects of good training for gun users. It means perhaps a larger quota for legal immigrants with specific indicators of future American citizenship and less open border or "illegal" traffic. It means job skills and education attainments in candidates get positive selection.....Herrod would vote Ryan out as speaker, and would vote with the Hannity sort of crowd on most stuff. Of course who the hell knows, really, what "Trump agenda" items really are, but Herrod got PAC money for changing things in Washington, and Curtis got the R party money for keeping the same game going. Bad idea for a man who does not really agree with most Utah political points to take Establishment money then crow about being an "independent Utah conservative". I'll say he gets a close shave next time in the primaries, but I'm not voting for him now.

 

[babe]

So, anyway, to get back on topic, here's the scoop on the street about Vegas. The CTs are expanding exponentially. Now there's an open challenge out to call the hospitals and ask how many gunshot wounds they had come in. Now the ambulances were bringing bodies to the scene, not taking them away, while the crowd was in panic/flight mode. Now the FBI confiscated cell phones and deleted video footage before returning them. Now a few Chicago-mob hitmen did all the shooting, leaving the obnoxious gambler dead and the security man wounded, and of course that poor illegal wage slave has to be contained and told what to say..... it'd really be nothing at all to drop his corpse off in no-man's land east of Yuma, and I'm sure he knows it......

my wife and kids get a hoot outta me listening to this stuff, and sound a whole lot like BP with questions about how in the world a psy-op of this scale could be managed.....

As always, like the Reichstag fire, or the sinking of the Maine, or the "lay down", "come hit me" defense of Pearl Harbor, larger scales make it more believable and easier to pull off. I'd say with MGM complicity, the staff is neutralized as naysayers, and with Vegas' notoriously corrupt FBI and police, there has to be a lot of institutional support for whatever the plan was.

I'm amazed there was any official discrepancy in the time line. That alone proves to me this was NOT a false flag staged event, but a real live honest-to-goodness mental case on psych meds with a drug-disabled critical thinking capacity and unhinged feedback control impulses, in a state of zombie-like gamer dehumanized euphoria, just like a number of other mass shooters have been. These modern psychotropics are a hellavalot more useful than Jonestown cool-aid..... And who could possibly evaluate the possibilities of an MK-ultra sort of scheme in action......

In my world view, I don't understand why we are all not just rolling insanely in the streets for no damn reason at all, because the deep state CFR mass media has turned us all into simplistic lemmings perfectly willing to be culled out of conflict with a mother nature gone amok on a panic-mode environmental revenge rage.

As Bill Gates says, overpopulation is problem number one.

So, anyway, I know nothing at all about any of this, I just don't believe the news no way no how no where never. So stay on yer toes folks. We've got a great puppet show for the kiddies.

 

[Red]

[MENTION=3085]Red[/MENTION]

Sorry I've been unable to address your comments lately. I thought I should actually read Snyder's piece you referenced. And I still haven't done that.

Of course I was guessing, well, assuming, from your comments some time ago regarding your association with some SW native American individuals whom you referred to as influential in your world view particularly regarding very ancient peoples of that area, that you might have done some stuff like say a sweat lodge fellowship or other "spiritual" experiences from that local culture. I really don't know much about it, never been very interested in the native American traditions. I was from my youth a fairly modern sort of scientific, analytical sort of person who considered the ancients mere superstitious fakirs.... Lately, oh say in the past ten years, on the suspicion that my mother in law might be right about being a Cherokee, indulged in a number of CD productions on native americans and their history. The mil looks like she could be somehow a native American of some degree, but the allegation has been factually rebutted by the family genealogist. Who knows, maybe he's wrong.

More recently, I have been reviewing some Mormon "defenders of the faith" who have hatched up a whole lot of CDs on their "heartland model" including a lot of material on the mound builders or Hopewell culture. Some "conspiracy theorists" decrying John Wesley Powell allege there's ruins hidden in the Grand Canyon that nobody is being allowed to examine, and other such stuff. John Wesley Powell, apparently, was born in Palmyra, New York the son of Methodist minister who was one of first on task to destroy Joseph Smith's claims, who together with a friend from the same place and time who became influential as a official of the Smithsonian, have been burying all kinds of stuff people have found (or made) that would indicate some influence during the 600 BC- 400AD period of the Hebrews, including the ancient Cherokee writing system which some have correlated to an ancient block form of Hebrew.....

Well, anyway, I think anyone who correlates Trump with nationalism or any other sort of definable system of views, has got to be a wild-eyed conspiracy theorist, orders of magnitude beyond mere defenders of the Mormon faith.

Trump is just too smart to lock down on ideological systems. He just doesn't care about anything but making government more sensible somehow, in his view. He doesn't care about the CFR. He knows who they are and he's willing to make any deal he can to get their help on something he somehow thinks will work better. He doesn't care about the Constitution, but he'll try to placate those who talk about it just enough to get them on board with some practical plan to make stuff work better. Clearly, he thinks Obama and Hillary are alright people, just too stupid to see good solutions to practical problems. That's his only beef with anyone.

When he's done his term(s), he'll look back and point to stuff he did that made a difference, but he'll go back to building other stuff. He really doesn't care about the Presidency. He doesn't care to fight "globalism" except to make better deals for America. He's no more complicated than that.

Hey babe. I've just got too much respect for rational thought to ever be a "wild eyed conspiracy theorist" and I don't think believing Trump uses nationalistic emotions to help control his base is a "wild eyed" interpretation of what's he's doing at all. Obviously you and I interpret the guy in radically different ways, but that's been at the crux of our differences right from the start. That's not going to change, but it's certainly no big deal on a personal level. It's of no consequence in the grand scheme of things. Thanks for taking the time.

 

[Deleted member 365]

Well, it had been a few weeks so clearly we were due for another mass shooting. 24 dead in a shooting in a church in Texas. Thoughts and prayers, this isn’t the time to talk about gun control, sweep the issue under the rug, and here in a few weeks we’ll be talking about another mass shooting in a School, church, theater, or concert.

But it wasn’t terrorism, unlike the New York thing, cuz the shooter was white and didn’t have a funny name.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/05/us/texas-church-shooting/index.html