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Having a slight problem with this "Free gift" concept and the notion that "Everyone is forgiven of sins if you receive Christ and repent" concept.
Why?
I've come across many Christians who seem to think that as long as they believe in Christ, anything goes. They can do what they like and simply "repent" away their sins at the end of the day. So why follow God's words & command at all? Salvation is a "free gift" at the end of the day isn't it?
Why?
I've come across many Christians who seem to think that as long as they believe in Christ, anything goes. They can do what they like and simply "repent" away their sins at the end of the day. So why follow God's words & command at all? Salvation is a "free gift" at the end of the day isn't it?
sahlensguy
Well-Known Member
Yes, and many Christians are probably in for a big surprise, for one reason or another -
The Narrow and Wide Gates
Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
Repentance in the Bible, means a change of mind.
Repenting for speeding on the highway means to obey the speed limit from here on out. Sorry.
D
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Figured I'd post in this thread, because I haven't done so yet.
Carry on.
Carry on.
You are not alone.
I've been all around this topic, dancing to the music of various snake charmers each with their own particular set of logical constructs. Nobody can dance to all those tunes at the same time.
We all get to do our own dance to our own music, if we wish. . . . and nobody who's ever tried to take a stand on conscience somehow has ever been able to satisfy the whole human piranha swarm and come out "whole".
But I choose to look first at the example of Jesus in all the situations we have concerning his life in the New Testament. On a most rudimentary level he taught people to have their own self-reflection, their own principles derived from some deeper consideration of whether they are doing good or not, and their own individual relationship with the Father, their own dialogue (prayer) with Him, and exhorted us to follow Him somewhat in the manner He did that Himself. I don't think following such an example is consistent with an undisciplined life of self-willed excesses or unexamined behaviors.
However, I do think the folks at the Pacific Garden Mission do have a very valid point in their thousands of programs called "Unshackled", in that we do not make our journey alone towards God. "Come into my heart Lord Jesus" is for many the step they just will not take, and it is their downfall.
come back sometime when you actually need to talk to someone. You're more than welcome.
Pretty safe to say we all need to think again about the "mind" we are living by.
And there's no special credit for "repenting" of others' problems as we see them, particularly if we use the observations to reinforce our own knot-headed ways.
sahlensguy
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Yeah, I find these discussions to be healthy reminders and to be most helpful.
Just returning from LG's "not thinking" discussion. . . . .
I'm definitely of a different school of thought than Toile, but have my own way about reaching the same "end". . . . er. . . . "now".
I know some people who definitely are unhappy about life. . . . er. . . . their wound-up ego approach to life. Doing a "Toile Tour" into "Now" could prove instructive and/or useful in helping to reset some of the persistent repetitive stress cycles, and I see that as descriptive of where he was before he made it OK to sit on the park bench for a while. But I don't need to ditch goals or loves or hopes for a better future to just be at peace with what is at the present.
I have a personal sort of "center" wherein I can accept what is and what can be at the same time. I love history, and find my most useful insights while investigating things that "have been", and realizing how our human condition and human nature impacts us now, as it has in the past, and will in the future. It gives me a sense of continuity as well as acceptance of myself. . . . . .
LogGrad98
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I agree with you about most of this. And I applaud you that you have worked your way to a similar end. But I don't read into Tolle's work that we have to eschew everything to live in peace in the "now", but rather that learning how to live in the now without expectations or judgements can help unclutter our minds and our lives so we can set truly effective goals - and reach them, love deeper and without condition or expectation of anything in return, and experience true hope, not just the hope of the next thing to come along being better than the past we just experienced. Which is what I think most people equate hope to. I know I did. I think a big part of this for me is that I am relearning what it means to have hope.
I think this can be effective in helping some people, myself included, find that personal "center" you are talking about.
I think the vast majority of us really do not live in the "now" but rather in the past or future, losing out on the happiness that is around us right, well, now. I also like his analogy of this way of living in the past and/or future instead of the "now", and being tied up in thought all the time, as an addiction of sorts. When I first started trying to settle my mind down and really control my thoughts, to be able to observe them as separate entities from myself without judgement or expectation, which I would argue few people really try to do and even fewer develop a real ability to do, it was like an addiction. I went (and still go) through periods of returning to intense thinking and dwelling on past or future concerns that is way beyond what may have been the case for me before I started the exercise. But I also find even those moments to be less disruptive and to create less stress than the state of constantly being in the past or future concerns that I was largely in before.
I think of it like an extinction burst in behavioral conditioning. When you are withholding or removing all reinforcers to eliminate a behavior the subject will almost always go through an extinction burst in which the behavior in question escalates tremendously for a period of time before they are able to actually let it go and the behavior stops. So to me that means, it appears to be working.
And hey this would have been cool in the other thread, this is actually just what I was looking for. And I kinda knew when you got involved it would take it to another level, as you always seem to have a good grasp of this type of topic and something positive to add to the conversation.
LogGrad98
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I guess I am seeing Tolle's philosophy as a stepping stone, not as an end in and of itself, and definitely not as the sole guiding light in my life, but rather as one of the stones in the foundation. I have found that most criticisms of his work that I have looked into mostly went from the generalization of "sitting on a park bench all happy all the time might be nice and all but I have a life to live" which to me misses his point entirely.
I agree with you about most of this. And I applaud you that you have worked your way to a similar end. But I don't read into Tolle's work that we have to eschew everything to live in peace in the "now", but rather that learning how to live in the now without expectations or judgements can help unclutter our minds and our lives so we can set truly effective goals - and reach them, love deeper and without condition or expectation of anything in return, and experience true hope, not just the hope of the next thing to come along being better than the past we just experienced. Which is what I think most people equate hope to. I know I did. I think a big part of this for me is that I am relearning what it means to have hope.
I think this can be effective in helping some people, myself included, find that personal "center" you are talking about.
I think the vast majority of us really do not live in the "now" but rather in the past or future, losing out on the happiness that is around us right, well, now. I also like his analogy of this way of living in the past and/or future instead of the "now", and being tied up in thought all the time, as an addiction of sorts. When I first started trying to settle my mind down and really control my thoughts, to be able to observe them as separate entities from myself without judgement or expectation, which I would argue few people really try to do and even fewer develop a real ability to do, it was like an addiction. I went (and still go) through periods of returning to intense thinking and dwelling on past or future concerns that is way beyond what may have been the case for me before I started the exercise. But I also find even those moments to be less disruptive and to create less stress than the state of constantly being in the past or future concerns that I was largely in before.
I think of it like an extinction burst in behavioral conditioning. When you are withholding or removing all reinforcers to eliminate a behavior the subject will almost always go through an extinction burst in which the behavior in question escalates tremendously for a period of time before they are able to actually let it go and the behavior stops. So to me that means, it appears to be working.
And hey this would have been cool in the other thread, this is actually just what I was looking for. And I kinda knew when you got involved it would take it to another level, as you always seem to have a good grasp of this type of topic and something positive to add to the conversation.
So I would probably need to read the books and listen a lot more to Tolle's lectures to actually represent his view accurately. But the little link you gave provided me a rather instant grasp of what he's driving towards, maybe because I instantly recognize something in it similar to my own development.
I was sidelined. . . . parked on a "park bench" by some severe physical limitations at one point in my life. I've had plenty of time to sit and do nothing, and realize the value of that time. I'm not much about being in a rush even now, though I can for good reason. I've worked with and lived with people who are compulsively set to meet needs, and I see some value in that too. The woman who's about to lose her baby needs nurses and doctors who know what to do, and how to do it fast. I imagine emergency personnel learn to live in the "now" and focus on it pretty good, and do all the right things reflexively. I'll take your word for it that Tolle embraces these realities as well.
It is true that a lot of folks get depressed and absolutely nonfunctional, being abysmally absorbed in protracted obsessions about the past or future, too. . . . I suppose learning to live in the "now" could really improve things for them, too. Rolling out of bed, pulling on some clothes and shoes are "now" things we just need to accept sometimes. . . . making it out into the sunshine "now" can be a very healthy change for some. . . .
I would hazard some speculations about the generalities you have referred to personally. . . . and say you are entitled to the time you need "now" to mend your internal ways as you may find appropriate. Everybody needs that kind of space sometimes.
Well, I no longer look for "Final Solutions", and everything looks to me like "stepping stones".
Having new ideas, or alternative views, we can use in addressing the present issues of life. . . . is like having tools in our tool-chest for whenever we may need them.
sahlensguy
Well-Known Member
God's Word is full of history, the now, where we are going, and who we are.
God Bless you babe.