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Frankly, for folks like Ron, and Red, and Karl Marx for that matter, who think religion is some kind of problem keeping back human progress, I think about all I can say is that this world is God's. And there is a plan, a better plan, for it.

Why would you make believe you actually know me that you could draw this kind of judgement? You've never met me, and I have never spoken a word on this forum that would lead you or anyone else to come to this conclusion.

That said, I did walk away from organized religion at a very young age, but I never stopped asking what I always thought were the most essential questions: who are we, where do we come from, where are we going? And I had experiences that led me to believe there was an underlying reality, encompassed by what some call the perennial wisdom. I found myself most comfortable within the gnostic tradition, and I still feel that way. I'm just not interested in the outer garments of the faith my folks belonged to, and in which they raised me. I had to walk my own path. And I had experiences that told me it was the right way for me.

I don't want to get too personal here, it's nobody's business, and of interest to nobody beyond myself. But, in addressing those questions that have made of me a seeker my entire life, I do reflect upon my own inner experiences and those of people who have had similar experiences, and I left this link earlier in this thread as an example. I just don't have need for the outer garments of the world's faiths. I mean, who needs religious wars, anyway? They really haven't helped, have they? Yet, I'm no follower of Karl Marx. You should not pretend that you know me, because you don't. Just leave me out of your musings. There's no need of that, and I can't be used to buttress any points you're trying to make in the above paragraph. Of that I can assure you. Except for the Plan. Don't presume I'm ignorant of that, because you would be doing me a disservice for no reason other then hearing yourself talk....

http://www.nderf.org/Archives/exceptional.html
 
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It was Ron's point that he does not need religion or belief in God to have virtue. A fair enough point which I know is to some extent true.

I know a little about your thinking and visions of, specifically, the little Resistance or revolution to save what you deem to be democracy, which shows your conviction and agreement that some of us have a plan for bettering this world. I think that fits with the atheist vision pretty good, a vision that consists of some plan of our own making.

Of course you belong to the group I am creating for this little essay, and people like you are a major element of contemporary culture. Maybe Bulletproof's sarcasm about not needing the Sky Daddy would fit as well. I could paint the theme with a Kicky, pretty sure there is enough ego there to demonstrate the point of the human belief in ourselves and our plans. I could probably draw out some of my own thinking and throw myself under the bus as one with that exact failing, if it be a failing.

Anyone who insists on crafting an imaginary God in their own heads would fit as well. Anyone who denies any specific concept anyone else has of "God" with the one essential feature of the God of Israel as presented in the Old Testament, a distinct character who has made a covenant, a promise, with Man, would fit as well.

Don't take it as an insult, really. You do fit in the class of folks we believe are human. In the class of folks the Born Again folks call sinners/children of God/unbelievers in that specific God who is the focus of their belief.... in their case, Jesus.

My idea of "God" is distinctly different, doctrinally, from the Trinity, or from Jesus, the Son of God. Because the Man with the Plan in my concept which I am laying out here is the same character as presented in the Old Testament with the tetragrammaton YHVH or JHVH.

Anyone, the whole kit and caboodle of folks with any kind of vision of their own perfect world, any believer in world peace, in world governance, in our government, or even the evening news would fit as well.

My experience which I refer to above as my basis for a rational belief that there exists a God essentially of the character of Jehovah is here presented as an alternative to our crusades for political salvation laid in the cradle of our own wishes.

I mention Karl Marx because his specific doctrine that religion or belief in God is "the opiate of the masses" and is a large factor in our contemporary culture and specifically Democrat Party themes, and our educational system's doctrines around evolution and values.

You deserve to get the mention because you have such strong convictions that you are right. I could hardly even talk about the Trump phenomenon without discussing the Grand Canyon scaled rift between Trump voters and the DumpTrumpsters.

Hardly any of the Trump critics, Colton included, Mormons generally included, Mitt Romney enthusiasts included, who are dismayed to see the political engines of social progress being trashed by outsider Trump, really understand the specific beliefs of religious folks who are indeed comfortable with what Trump is doing even if he is one of the greater sinners of our kind in any respect, because he is specifically doing what he is doing.... unhitching the apparatus of the government gone amok.

Trumpsters might be another group of us humans who have our own kind of vision, but the ideas of the American Way, of American Exceptionalism, of in fact belief in our Constitutional Principles of Limited Government as some kind of Divinely Inspired vision of human liberty, are specifically what Trump has chosen to play his horn to.

For all your work in here to criticize Trump, I could hardly discuss the subject of political visions of human salvation without discussing your points in great detail.
 
Anyways, Red, in my specific point, I recognize that every post you have made with reference to Trump or Russia demonstrates a whole-hearted conviction that Trump represents an existential threat to human civilization, and the political strategy to oppose Trump systematically includes the effort to alienate him from his religious, conservative base. The fact that this strategy is so bizarrely pursued in the media and is so ineffective with supposedly religious Trumpsters deserves explanation.

The explanation is that it is obvious to even poor demented "Jesus Freaks", let alone union workers and blacks living in our Democrat Urban Plantation Experiments (DUPEs), and many other supposedly solid democrat voter blocks, that some of you believe we cannot consistently believe in God and love Trump for what he is doing.

We don't buy your load, we are tired of your assumptions about us.

Trump got the vote because we could smell the opportunity of economic liberty. The whole scheme of political fragmentation and Globalist planning for us has come undone. The wheels have fallen off that wagon. The 2018 election will not be the blue tide just because of the fact that so many folks of all kinds..... minorities included....HipHop believers like Sonny Johnson and Constitutionalists like Ted Cruz.... just don't want this government plan some of you believe is Good.
 
Anyways, Red, in my specific point, I recognize that every post you have made with reference to Trump or Russia demonstrates a whole-hearted conviction that Trump represents an existential threat to human civilization, and the political strategy to oppose Trump systematically includes the effort to alienate him from his religious, conservative base. The fact that this strategy is so bizarrely pursued in the media and is so ineffective with supposedly religious Trumpsters deserves explanation.

The explanation is that it is obvious to even poor demented "Jesus Freaks", let alone union workers and blacks living in our Democrat Urban Plantation Experiments (DUPEs), and many other supposedly solid democrat voter blocks, that some of you believe we cannot consistently believe in God and love Trump for what he is doing.

We don't buy your load, we are tired of your assumptions about us.

Trump got the vote because we could smell the opportunity of economic liberty. The whole scheme of political fragmentation and Globalist planning for us has come undone. The wheels have fallen off that wagon. The 2018 election will not be the blue tide just because of the fact that so many folks of all kinds..... minorities included....HipHop believers like Sonny Johnson and Constitutionalists like Ted Cruz.... just don't want this government plan some of you believe is Good.

Economic tyranny you mean. You call monopoly capitalism economic liberty. Just the reverse. It stifles competition and leads to totalitarianism in which we become a society of the strong oppressing the weak. This is just the opposite of Christianity.
 
Economic tyranny you mean. You call monopoly capitalism economic liberty. Just the reverse. It stifles competition and leads to totalitarianism in which we become a society of the strong oppressing the weak. This is just the opposite of Christianity.

I'm generally sympathetic with this concern, and I know Trump needs to be watched. I know the Chinese mainlanders have hopes of cornering American markets with the same kind of strategies that have worked so well with McConnell and the Clintons.

anyone with government power needs to be watched, and I agree with you that most of the conservatives who are ardent simpletons about limited government or free markets need exposure to the light of honest reporting of who is giving money to whom.

Our system of markets and governance today is highly crafted with carve-out cash cows to compensate big political campaign contributors. Cartelism and Big Government are indeed the twin barbarian monsters of the New World Order.
 
The recent Supreme Court decisions have virtually destroyed any remnant of democracy. McCain had started the move to get money out of politics and now no one even talks about it any longer. While I've been a life-long Democrat -- the DNC has turned me into an Independent -- our nation would've been so much better had McCain been President rather than Bush.
 
The recent Supreme Court decisions have virtually destroyed any remnant of democracy. McCain had started the move to get money out of politics and now no one even talks about it any longer. While I've been a life-long Democrat -- the DNC has turned me into an Independent -- our nation would've been so much better had McCain been President rather than Bush.

So I would like to hear about McCain's move or idea and what went wrong that it went nowhere. How is he/was he different from Bush?
 
Note to babe. Don't say Red isn't spiritual or doesn't believe in God one way or another again.
and Don't say Bullet isn't supporting some libertarian ideas about rights, even gun rights.
and don't say only religious people can be good.

OK. Got it.
 
religions in the hands of unrestrained powerful men, and governments in the hands of unrestrained powerful men or even experts.... are all alike in one regard. It doesn't matter what the ideal is, or what the political rhetoric sounds like, unrestrained power in human hands has so often turned out bad.

That is what makes the US Constitution worth sticking to, and sticking up for. A sorta self-checking restrained on the departments of power.

What needs fixing is the agencies that are now writing laws in various regards with no public vote allowed. Comments, yes, that is good so far as it goes, but we actually need some kind of electoral input.

And that is what makes the effort to restrain Trump such a mess. Do we get to elect a President who can change things, or not????? Is it really too much to let elections happen and have actual consequences?????
 
So I would like to hear about McCain's move or idea and what went wrong that it went nowhere. How is he/was he different from Bush?
To be honest, I never looked into it. But you might recall he was leading the push to publicly fund the Presidential campaign. I don't know the specifics but he couldn't get enough support in Congress. And then we got Citizens United, thanks to McConnell who led the support for that.

And Bush, he was part of the "ruling" family and he brought along his father's buddies Cheney and Rumsfold -- they ran the country while he was President, and I'm sure Daddy Bush had input. They were behind 9-11, no doubt about it, and we're still mired in conflicts in the Middle East. 9-11 was the excuse.
 
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