my mistake. I was somehow getting the idea that you're part of the STGcrew with PKM or something. . . . maybe it's UGLI who lives in St. George. I am actually from St. George, some family still there. I go to SoCal sometimes. I usually go down I=15 and I-215 to San Diego area.
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my mistake. I was somehow getting the idea that you're part of the STGcrew with PKM or something. . . . maybe it's UGLI who lives in St. George. I am actually from St. George, some family still there. I go to SoCal sometimes. I usually go down I=15 and I-215 to San Diego area.
jazz_fanatic
Well-Known Member
This post was deep. That was beautiful. Made me tear up a bit. Jk, but close. Not that close. Ok, close.
Repped.
Hey!!!I've only joined recently too! But apparently it's kinda like a place to hang out and chat about stuff .. babe is basically our host .. he's pretty non threatening... so if you have life's problem you need someone's opinion on or some philosophical theory you want some feedback on or even if you wanna talk football.. just bring a topic..
The beauty of it is babe is kinda moderating it so hopefully you won't get as many stupid answers as you might do by starting a new thread in the general forum...
^__^ hope this helps!!
Thank you, my friend. I understand now. Great thread, babe. I will visit more often and may come here the next time I need advice on life and such.
^__^ you're most welcome!
So I went looking for some Ravi Zacharias on the issue of atheism. . . . ..
here's a pretty good comment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51rR4aC9aMg
well, I'm sure some folks would call Zacharias a dimwit and wrong, but I would at least respect the hope for civility and sometimes need to remember it.
here's a pretty good comment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51rR4aC9aMg
well, I'm sure some folks would call Zacharias a dimwit and wrong, but I would at least respect the hope for civility and sometimes need to remember it.
This post was deep. That was beautiful. Made me tear up a bit. Jk, but close. Not that close. Ok, close.
Repped.
Thank you, my friend. I understand now. Great thread, babe. I will visit more often and may come here the next time I need advice on life and such.
Looking forward to some reasonably challenging and beneficial discussions. . . . .
The Black Swordsman
Well-Known Member
Theism (or more specifcally monotheism) is the recognition that something unexplainable is going to have to be used to explain reality. It can be beyond this universe like m-theory or beyond that. It can also be this universe itself (pantheism). This unexplainable thing is worthy of the title god.
This is my favorite definition of theism and my wording for it. There are a million different definitions for atheism so I made one for theism.
As far as Ravi goes I think you would like John Lennox. He has defeated Dawkins and every other atheist in debate. He also does lectures at schools and such as he is a professor at Oxford.
Here is one of my favorites of humilating Dawkins. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NzFr4lM-lc
This is my favorite definition of theism and my wording for it. There are a million different definitions for atheism so I made one for theism.
As far as Ravi goes I think you would like John Lennox. He has defeated Dawkins and every other atheist in debate. He also does lectures at schools and such as he is a professor at Oxford.
Here is one of my favorites of humilating Dawkins. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NzFr4lM-lc
UGLI baby
Well-Known Member
How tha hell you gonna act like you dont know I'm part of the STG crew babe??
Who the heck is St. George? And why do you all worship him?
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Can't believe you don't know the reason why there are no more dragons in the world is not because of the Weasley's and their wizard friends, but due to St. George slaying them.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
OK, I know I'm going off topic, but I'm happy to report my Wildcats returned to action today (we were off for 2 weeks) in FEROCIOUS fashion. We went up 5-0 early and I again had to throttle us back to avoid a blowout. Must be the name, right PKM? Even better, the opposing coach was someone who works at my former company. Nice enough guy, but in the end he aligned himself with the enemy regime, so take that!!! We're now 4-1-1, with the loss being my fault. Actually wouldn't have happened if we were "playing for keeps," but technically we don't keep track of wins and losses in U8; only when the girls move on to the next level. We've got quite the reputation for being a tough and aggressive team (but not illegal or dirty), with an impenetrable defense. I wish there were playoffs in our age division. We'd likely be the #1 team.
What sports? Soccer?
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Yes. And also by default it appears I'll now be coaching my daughter's volleyball team as the coach missed two practices and a game without notifying anyone. I wonder if basketball is next?!
I'm actually trying to get away from coaching my daughter. As much as I love coaching - and I think I'm great at working with children - coaching your own can be problematic. My daughter feels as if she's entitled to more attention and can get away with misbehaving since her dad is the coach. And if/when I try to come down hard, then my wife gets her knickers in a twist. So I'll probably limit myself going forward to being an assistant coach, referee, etc.
I have settled myself on an answer to the bolded part. Well, this is deep old-time LDS stuff I suppose, and I don't wanna just be presenting this like it should be "scriptural". In the quasi-scientific cosmology of some early LDS expansive babblings. . .. this life is a sort of test. We had a spiritual existence before we were born spanning millions of years with our Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, replete with teachers of all kinds. Pretty easy to just love God when He's "Been There" all along. . . . . but the object of our training is to develop in us the principles and character so exquisitely demonstrated or exemplified by our Father. Sending us into this world was a sort of graduation from the first, and a preparation for the next, but the test here is basically to develop our capacity to act on direct principles and choices all our own, to learn to choose good without specific immediate rewards on the call of character. . . . to walk by faith and not by sight.
The question is who we really want to be, or become. . .. . specifically under the circumstance of having no coercion or expectation forcing us in the right path.
yah, I know this fails in terms of being circuitous logic and inconsistent within its own set of notions.
But I think I'd be concerned about a worshipping a God who had a penchant for forcing us to conform to some pattern. I might like it if I can make the choices myself. In short, I really don't want to just "know" God so certainly I can't sometimes just be myself. . . . and I do think God loves me.
My dad had the consideration to just be gone when I was growing up. Yah he paid the bills. But I relished being totally free. My mom was just powerless, a victim of unconditional love and an unwillingness to be objectively critical of her kids' conduct. She did the laundry, fixed the meals, and such. . . . and we ran wild.
I learned early on to think sometimes for myself and just figure things out. . . .. .
Freedom is wonderful.
If God showed up, I am afraid Freedom would be out the door. . . . . .
Can't you take her to side somehow and just tell her she's ruining the fun of coaching by being prissy? Tell her that if she pulls that stunt on you, you'll sideline her for ten minutes of play. She's gonna be treated just the same as anyone else, and it's gonna be called on performance, not being Coach's girl.
A shame to lose a good coach.
It goes with my general schtick of somehow being uncertain I really know anything in the internet chat forums about the people who show up in these places. . . . . .
I had noted some references to the STG crew. . . . George made it sorta emerge as a status thing I think. PKM has said he lives there. Some others have said it, too. I think you have. . . . but am I really expected to just believe what I'm told?????
I mean, Me??????? The one untiring preacher of rejecting modern "education" as mere statist propaganda intended to condition modern man to be content being the menial servant class of the emerging Neo-Feudal World Order????
I mean, when I believe in Cold Fusion as science when the math dictates a probability on the order of 10exp (-70) it can happen????? And when I disbelieve in science when the math dictates a probability of 10 exp (+70). that it has to happen????
I'm a world-class contrarian, folks.
want me in the STG crew????
Yep I get that, as a Christian it's easy to go along with this.
However, most people that asked me the above question are atheists. So I had to try and come up with a plausible explanation for why he would not make himself known explicitly without going all Christiany on them. Also I had to try and come up with something that will make them think critically, and to somehow help them to reach the logical conclusion that the existence of God is plausible without being pushy or offensive.
Also the answer had to be concise and without being whiny, bang bang bang, and way you go type answers. I didn't want to waffle on.
Anyway if you can come up with something more logical, concise and persuasive, I'd be interested to hear it. That goes for both of the original questions BTW.
I like Ravi quite a lot. Learn something new every time I listen. Not familiar yet with Lennox.
What Ravi doesn't admit about Mormonism is the early appeal of Mormonism was specifically an appeal to literal interpretation of biblical text, which the christians of the day had sophisticized.. . .. for lack of a better term. . . . into the Trinity concept of ..... ha ha. . . . Monotheism. Mainstream mormonism made a sharp doctrinal turn in the early twentieth century, and joined the Trinitarian Mystery Cult that tries to make Jesus everything.
The original concept of Hebraic monotheism held the name of God sacred and indeed maintained one unchangeable and eternal God, the YHVH tetragrammaton person. .. . . definitely a person. . . .. because Abraham saw Him, and fed Him, on the plain of Mamre, and Moses is described as seeing the face of God and in other respects finding that God was of a person's form and substance. . . . though worthy of infinite respect for being a God of every form of virtue in perfection. David in Psalms 110 verse 4 says the Adonai or messianic figure of a saviour for Israel would sit at the right hand of God, clearly being a separate character...... not the YHVH one God. . . . . .The Hebrews did not expect the YHVH character to come dwell with them in mortal coil.
Paul said that Jesus was the "High Priest", or intercessor with the YHVH character.
So anyway, early Mormons knew there was one covenant maker with man, and a separate character being the intercessor or saviour or the lamb offered in atonement for our sin.
The Holy Ghost is only a gift of spirit, necessary in the service of believers only because GOD is indeed a person of human form. GOD is the same yesterday, today and forever. HE was a person of human form before this world was, when he made covenant with Abraham, and when he spoke from Heaven declaring Jesus to be his only begotten Son, and when HE appeared in the sacred Grove and introduced the Saviour to Joseph Smith.
Jesus is not that GOD, as he was a spirit until he was born into life in this world, and was mortal while in this world, and after being resurrected has been immortal. That is definitely not the same "yesterday, today, and forever".
So anyway, the tendency to make Jesus equivalent to GOD was evident in the New Testament, and is probably the best reason the Jews could have for disbelieving tha the Christians have the right belief in God.
But despite the failure of Ravi to research the issue in Mormonism, I think he does pretty good as an apologist for Christianity. Just not the fact that Mormons are not pretty good Monotheistic believers in the Hebrew God, the God of Abraham. Of course Mormons have always had freedom to talk off the top of their heads. . . . and not everyone has understood it very well, if anyone has at all. . . ..
But I think the Trinity is the most flagrant nonsense mankind could ever conjure up, and the early Mormon statement on the identity of the person YHVH the most clear-cut notion of monotheism at least in the Christian world.
and yes, the doctrine may have popped up in the "bible belt" of the American frontier as the consequence of folks reading their bibles more carefully, and being unsatisfied with traditional gobbledlygook Trinity hocus-pocus.
but it is what the Bible says, at least in one line of statements. . . . not to say there aren't plenty of confused writers in the Bible who wanted to make Jesus the GOD.
St. George was historically a person in English history. No, he is not worshiped. But he is reverenced with the honor of having his "cross" on the English Flag, the Union Jack. In 1860 my great grandfather, who's name was "George" won the race from the Mormon camp by the springs just outside of the planned townsite, by getting to his plot first. We haven't really pushed the connection, because there were also some Mormon elites in that day who bore the name George, and some folks imagine the town was named in the honor of one of those.
But it's a nice town with a fine climate, and has become quite the mecca for retiring folks from the lands of winter weather. It was settled on the plan to raise cotton in the area using irrigation water from the Virgin River, and it did that during the Civil War, and for a while after.
Most of the folks were English, and some Southern US converts. My grandpa was a sailor who could do rigging for building buildings, and a winemaker who could produce the needed "sacrament" then in vogue with the Mormons. I don't think the town was named after any person except the much loved original English character known as "St. George".