Marvin is the kind of player who drives me nuts. You look at the box score the next day, see that he got 28 minutes, and you cannot remember a single thing that he did. The invisible man. Give me Carrol any day. I want to see hustle, fight, scrapping, moving, jumping, running etc. Marv plays it too cool. Just think what he could be if he had Demarre's motor.
Marvin Williams Underated and maybe even hated By JF
- Thread starter DutchJazzer
- Start date
Here's what I posted about Marvin on 7-5-2012 (when we traded for him): "I'm 'meh' toward this trade - Williams can shoot the three and runs the court well, but sometimes when I've watched him play he tended to disappear for long stretches...."
Saying that, he's a decent defender and he doesn't do a lot of stupid things.
Saying that, he's a decent defender and he doesn't do a lot of stupid things.
candrew
Well-Known Member
Very true - only problem is there are about 50 guys in the league that can bring what he does to the table for about half the money.
Weezur
Well-Known Member
Marvin has to share his +/- with Jefferson and Sap while DeMarre shares it with Favors and Hayward against opponent benches. You could put anyone out there and they'd have the same +/- as Demarre if Favors and Hayward are there with them.
I agree with Dutch (wierd). Marvin 1) doesn't get touches because Al/Sap/Foye demand offensive touches and 2) is a stellar defender against the 3 position which I think is the strongest position in the NBA. If it came down to it and Foye, Carrole, and Marvin all had the same contract, I'd choose Marvin. But because of their contracts, Carrolle is the optimal solution.
HeavenHarris
Banned
the mods let dutchjazzer back in bro, what do u expect
Way more complicated than this of course. Favors doesn't even have a positive +/- for the year; he's at -23, and his 48 net is -1.3. Hayward plays lots of his minutes with the starters (he's 5th and 6th respectively with one of the worst win% of any player on our team). Kanter, on the other hand, is 3rd best on our team in both of these areas and has the 2nd best win% (60%).
Weezur
Well-Known Member
My point is that +/- is a stat that needs to be weighted against the opponent strength and the minutes they play against a given opponent.
IE: If Marvin and Foye play exclusively against Lebron and Wade while DeMarre and Hayward plays exclusively against Battier and Allen, who's going to have the better +/-?
Not saying that this is a real world case, but I think it shows the weakness of the +/- stat.
Jazz4ever
Well-Known Member
I've been waiting for basketballvalue to update the adjusted +/- but think the guy got hired by an NBA team. Millsap led the Jazz the last two years in this category with flying colors.
DutchJazzer
Banned
wouldnt that be considered chucking and being a black hole?
i remember the days when basketball was a teamgame
DutchJazzer
Banned
agreed he doe snothing spectecular on defense and makes no mistakes.
but none the less he PLAYS superb defense.
i started noticing when i was trying to not look at jefferson on defense.
DutchJazzer
Banned
again thank you for your hipoclitical contribution to this thread
vegas
Well-Known Member
That's why JJAS gave 7 other stats to compare. I think we all understand that it has to be taken in context.
Zman has it right, Marvin has the tools, Demarre has the motor.
DutchJazzer
Banned
On second thought i forgot to look at his contract.
Geez 9 million for him is steep.
his contract makes him a "bad" player.
but still try playing 5th fiddle in a alfensive system and you tend to dissapear
Geez 9 million for him is steep.
his contract makes him a "bad" player.
but still try playing 5th fiddle in a alfensive system and you tend to dissapear
Brown Notes
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if this sentence is intended to be as funny as it really is.
Did I say chuck? He has the skills and talent, he just needs to assert himself more.
His contract doesn't make him a bad player. He's a decent player with a bad contract.
DutchJazzer
Banned
I know but when taking the "value" to the team of a player into account, you gotta take a look at the contract imho.
if we had ak at 6-9 million back in the day he would be hated far less. than his max contract.
Weezur
Well-Known Member
It shouldn't be too hard. I mean just take the opponent 5 man lineup's +/- and the minutes that the +/- was computed for and BAM! Much better than +/-. I just think that it's a very raw stat that needs some conditioning to be put to use effectively.
Don't get me started on per 36 minute stats.
If everyone played as intense in 10 minutes as they would for 36 minutes, then the NBA would be a bunch of Lebron James'. (Exaggerating, but you get the point).
I get it though, Marvin isn't playing better than Carrolle as far as rebounds, points, steals, go.. Kudos to that and I agree with the bolded part for sure.
jope
Well-Known Member
Even then...
Demarre and Marvin essentially shoot the same % from 3
AND
Per 36
Demarre is superior in Orebs, points (with less fga), rebs (by a lot), asts, stls (again by a lot [double]), and less t/o's,
Marvin is in no way more helpful than Demarre.
billyshelby
Well-Known Member
I know somewhere a Hawks fan is giggling at this thread.