Messina vs. Blatt. This Friday.

[ema]

Any Euroleague fans want to give us odds on Tomic's Barca squad upsetting Madrid in the other semi? I assume that it's rather meaningless that Barca easilly handled Madrid a few days ago, correct?

Apparently the odds were low, in hindsight obviously. Madrid won the game 100-62, that's a shame for the Barcas. But stats say Tomic was good, the best actually in his team. 16 pts, 8 rbs in 28 mins, still pretty meaningless though, considering the score.

 

[Guitaro]

This discussion actually brings up a good point: If you bring in a guy like Messina, who is pretty intense, then you can't have players who can't take that pressure or rebels against authoritative coaches.

Ostertag, for example, as a player was always butting heads with Sloan. They're friends, granted, but that doesn't always make for a good working relationship. There were many players like that over the years.

Do we really want another coach that can't coach certain personalities? Would you say Phil Jackson or Coach Pop can't coach certain personalities?

 

[karpasov]

( Here are links to the game (I found just Spanish broadcast links
VK ONLINE

1/4 - https://adf.ly/nJq4a
2/4 - https://adf.ly/nJqCF
3/4 - https://adf.ly/nJqGJ
4/4 - https://adf.ly/nJqIv

 

[idiot]

Should we be concerned about Messina?

At the end of the season, when his team should be rounding into best form, they lose two straight in the domestic playoffs to a heavy underdog at home. Then they fall apart in the final quarter against another underdog in the Euroleague semis to lose by one. Then they mail it in to lose by 15 to Tomic's Barca team that was humiliated the previous game. (And as for Tomic in the Euroleague playoffs: good game when his team was destroyed; poor game when the rest of his team decides to play well against Moscow. Also unsettling.)

I'm perfectly willing to concede that this may in fact be meaningless (small sample size and all), but someone please tell me why I shouldn't be worried that Messina quit on his team or his team quit on him here at the end of the season. And as long as I'm going here, wasn't most of Messina's reputation built in his earlier years? Haven't his teams had something of an underachieving reputation over the past few years?

Euro experts, please help me out.

 

[Diamond77]

Maccabi won the Euroleague!! They have beaten Real Madrid 98-86 in OT!

David Blatt did something extraordinary with an average roster!

Messina's CSKA lost the game against Barcelona for the 3rd place! Tomic played just 15 min and he had 6 points.

 

[VINYLONE]

Does Chris Paul play for cska?

Ouch.

Also, **** Chrissy.

 

[ema]

Should we be concerned about Messina?

At the end of the season, when his team should be rounding into best form, they lose two straight in the domestic playoffs to a heavy underdog at home. Then they fall apart in the final quarter against another underdog in the Euroleague semis to lose by one. Then they mail it in to lose by 15 to Tomic's Barca team that was humiliated the previous game. (And as for Tomic in the Euroleague playoffs: good game when his team was destroyed; poor game when the rest of his team decides to play well against Moscow. Also unsettling.)

I'm perfectly willing to concede that this may in fact be meaningless (small sample size and all), but someone please tell me why I shouldn't be worried that Messina quit on his team or his team quit on him here at the end of the season. And as long as I'm going here, wasn't most of Messina's reputation built in his earlier years? Haven't his teams had something of an underachieving reputation over the past few years?

Euro experts, please help me out.

It was known that CSKA had serious team chemistry issues. However, I can't say if Messina had a big part in it or not, since I don't follow CSKA that closely. But I just know that Messina has been admitting it for some time and were criticizing himself for not being able to fix it, that gives me the impression that the problems were severe and over him this time. This happens a lot in Europe, teams with star players just can't establish the team chemistry and collapse. Same thing happens and did happen to every good coaches.

Though, I'd add technical and basketball related aspects as well. CSKA is a good example for an unbalanced roster, they had been playing with serious back court issues. Teodosic is probably one of the most overrated PGs in Europe with horrible defense and he frequently gets injured and messes up the team rhythm. Plus he's a diva, I wouldn't be surprised if the chemistry problems relate to him. Also, Pargo and the other guards are far from replacing him. It's hard to compete in Euroleage without a consistent back court.

This is Messina's comments after that second loss against Lokomotiv-Kuban.

- Krasnodar deserved this win. They pushed at our weak spots, especially on our defense at the point guard and shooting guard position. At the same time, even after everything that happened yesterday, we stayed within 2-3 points for a long time. But in the third quarter we committed six turnovers in a row while trying to play pretty. Against an aggressive defense, you have to play simpler and be more careful. That shows our lack of consistency, which, to my regret, we’ve been unable to fix over two years. I’m not confident that with four days to go before leaving for the Final Four, I’ll be able to change anything. Yes, we’ll come to the arena once again and will give it our best. But you can’t change human nature.

And after the F4.

Messina admitted that “we got chemistry problems the whole season, it’s not a mystery” and he almost agreed that “CSKA Moscow was like a family without love, but you know well how much I love this club and how much it means to me. I did my best. If you think that my best were not enough, then I understand”.

Like I said, same thing happens to every good coaches like it happens in the NBA too. And It happened to Blatt as well in Istanbul with Efes, before someone says he's immune to that. It also happened to Pianigiani last year. It happened to Pesic and Spahija. It happened to Ivkovic too, another legendary coach in Europe.

Heck, this year it happened to even Obradovic! The best of the bests! The winningiest coach of the Europe and arguably the best of its history. Ironically, Fenerbahçe with Obradovic absolutely humiliated Messina and CSKA in the earlier stages of the Euroleague. But at the end Fener couldn't advance to Final 8 but CSKA did make it to the Final 4. But obviously, that doesn't make Messina better than Obra although even Fener's roster wasn't worse than CSKA's either. But it was the same story kind of, it was an unbalanced roster with a weak front court and had the similar team chemistry issues.

And as long as I'm going here, wasn't most of Messina's reputation built in his earlier years? Haven't his teams had something of an underachieving reputation over the past few years?

That's not entirely true. Your question reminded me another poster saying that Messina's past five years were all failure. Here is that post and the answer I gave.

The gist of it here:

But anyway, here is the last 5 years of Messina.. Believe me, there are very few coaches that have these achievements in their entire careers.

3x Russian championships(2008-2009-2013) [Russian league is arguably the best domestic league after the ACB(Spanish League) in Europe]
1x Euroleage Championship(2008) [the best league in the world after the NBA]
1x Euroleague Final (2009)
2x Euroleague Final Four (2011, 2014)
1x Euroleague Final Eight (2010)
2x ACB Copa del Rey Final (2010, 2011)
2x Third place in ACB (2010-2011)

And don't forget that he spent the 2011-2012 season in LA as just a consultant.

So, it's all relative. For a coach like Messina, the bar is very high. But the Euroleague F4 is like the NBA conference finals in Europe so even this final F4 could pass as a success for Messina, since it's a dream for the most of the remaining coaches.

 

[VINYLONE]

@ Enes: Looks like Messina is incredibly tactful and able to see things for what they are.

 

[homeytennis]

@ Enes: Looks like Messina is incredibly tactful and able to see things for what they are.

Blatt bead Messina for the Euroleague Championship.

 

[VINYLONE]

Blatt bead Messina for the Euroleague Championship.

Your point?

 

[homeytennis]

Since the game went into OT it would appear to me that both coaches are in a dead heat.

 

[ema]

@ Enes: Looks like Messina is incredibly tactful and able to see things for what they are.

I like his self-image. Some might say he talks too negative/criticizing towards himself and his team but it's just because he doesn't like losing and he's never known for talking to please everyone. His principle is balance and finding the "best right" out of all the right things, on the court and off the court.

 

[idiot]

Thanks for the insight, Enes CTYA!

 

[Stifle Tower]

Thanks for the insight, Enes CTYA!

Hear, hear!
The insights of our international members such as ECTYA are invaluable. I feel we are much better informed than a lot in terms of international players and now coaches. So a big thanks to all our non-US board members! Please keep posting your unique info and perspectives.

 

[Stifle Tower]

BTW, do any of you know how much Blatt and Messina are getting paid?

 

[ema]

Thanks for the insight, Enes CTYA!

You're welcome, any time. Not really, only when I have the time.

Hear, hear!
The insights of our international members such as ECTYA are invaluable. I feel we are much better informed than a lot in terms of international players and now coaches. So a big thanks to all our non-US board members! Please keep posting your unique info and perspectives.

Thanks a lot for the nice words, we are trying our best to misinform you, dear American friends, and spread false information for our evil goals.

BTW, do any of you know how much Blatt and Messina are getting paid?

I couldn't find a definite info about Blatt, but I remember he had contract issues with Aris before he went to Maccabi, so Maccabi had to pay also the buy-out of Blatt and in return he discounted from his salary, it should be around $500K-$600k per year at max.

I remember Messina signing a $1M per year deal with CSKA but keep in mind that taxes are not heavy in Europe as in the NBA so they lose much less than half of it to the taxes.

As for the biggest salary among the European coaches, it's $1.85M per year deal of Obradovic. So the numbers are nowhere near the salaries of the NBA coaches actually.

 

[Stifle Tower]

You're welcome, any time. Not really, only when I have the time.






Thanks a lot for the nice words, we are trying our best to misinform you, dear American friends, and spread false information for our evil goals.



I couldn't find a definite info about Blatt, but I remember he had contract issues with Aris before he went to Maccabi, so Maccabi had to pay also the buy-out of Blatt and in return he discounted from his salary, it should be around $500K-$600k per year at max.

I remember Messina signing a $1M per year deal with CSKA but keep in mind that taxes are not heavy in Europe as in the NBA so they lose much less than half of it to the taxes.

As for the biggest salary among the European coaches, it's $1.85M per year deal of Obradovic. So the numbers are nowhere near the salaries of the NBA coaches actually.

Thanks. And it is not the NBA that taxes salaries. That would be the federal and state governments. Taxes can be high in certain states, but no one lives in a 50% tax area. Based on my experience with non-US employees working in int'l locations for my previous employer, I'd say citizens of France and other countries had a bigger chunk of their paychecks lost to taxes than U.S. employees.

In any case, the salaries for Euro coaches are considerably less than what they would make in the U.S. So there would be an incentive to come over, even if a deal didn't approach what Kerr or SVG were given.

 

[VINYLONE]

Hear, hear!
The insights of our international members such as ECTYA are invaluable. I feel we are much better informed than a lot in terms of international players and now coaches. So a big thanks to all our non-US board members! Please keep posting your unique info and perspectives.

Well said. The larger diversity of posters the better as far as I'm concerned. I also love my Muslim brothers and sisters.


This electronic post has been constructed, arranged and transmitted via an Apple branded communication device using the Tapatalk application.

 

[ema]

Thanks. And it is not the NBA that taxes salaries. That would be the federal and state governments. Taxes can be high in certain states, but no one lives in a 50% tax area. Based on my experience with non-US employees working in int'l locations for my previous employer, I'd say citizens of France and other countries had a bigger chunk of their paychecks lost to taxes than U.S. employees.

Yep, I meant the government taxes of course. But you may be right, in certain European countries it gets worse than U.S. Spain for instance. There were huge controversies over sports taxes a few years ago because of the financial crises there, it was pretty dense.

In any case, the salaries for Euro coaches are considerably less than what they would make in the U.S. So there would be an incentive to come over, even if a deal didn't approach what Kerr or SVG were given.

No doubt about it. The only way they would cost near of SVG or Kerr would be because of a stupid bidding race between multiple teams, which is still unlikely.

So actually, going the Euro coach route would also make more sense financially to the Jazz owners. A native coach most probably could cost much more than Messina or Blatt.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Yep, I meant the government taxes of course. But you may be right, in certain European countries it gets worse than U.S. Spain for instance. There were huge controversies over sports taxes a few years ago because of the financial crises there, it was pretty dense.


No doubt about it. The only way they would cost near of SVG or Kerr would be because of a stupid bidding race between multiple teams, which is still unlikely.

So actually, going the Euro coach route would also make more sense financially to the Jazz owners. A native coach most probably could cost much more than Messina or Blatt.

France has an effective tax rate of 40%+ IIRC.