More Muslim violence in Europe

[fishonjazz]

And to further think about religion of peace... how you can call it that way when numerous countries consider abandonment of Islam a crime worth death penalty?
Here is how apostasy from Islam is punished in few countries. How we can look at it and say it is ok?

Iran – illegal (death penalty)
Egypt – illegal (3 years' imprisonment)
Pakistan – illegal (death penalty[9] since 2007)
United Arab Emirates – illegal (3 years' imprisonment, flogging)
Somalia – illegal (death penalty)
Afghanistan – illegal (death penalty, although the U.S. and other coalition members have put pressure that has prevented recent executions)
Saudi Arabia – illegal (death penalty, although there have been no recently reported executions)
Sudan – illegal (death penalty, although there have only been recent reports of torture, and not of execution)
Qatar – illegal (death penalty)
Yemen – illegal (death penalty)
Malaysia – illegal in five of 13 states (fine, imprisonment, and flogging)
Mauritania – illegal (death penalty if still apostate after 3 days)
Morocco – illegal to proselytise conversion (15 years' imprisonment)
Jordan – possibly illegal (fine, jail, child custody loss, marriage annulment) although officials claim otherwise, convictions are recorded for apostasy
Oman – legal in criminal code, but according to the family code, a father can lose custody of his child

I found this to be quite interesting/disturbing.

I also found it interesting that underkanter and blackswordsman didn't comment on/defend it.

 

[The Black Swordsman]

I found this to be quite interesting/disturbing.

I also found it interesting that underkanter and blackswordsman didn't comment on/defend it.

I admit this is common throughout the Muslim world. However, there is nothing in the Qur'an that says you should kill/punish people who leave Islam. Listen people do not like hearing that you are a different religion than them. For example usually when someone asks what religion you are they don't really care what you believe in, they just want to hear validation for their own beliefs. This insecurity is also present in the Muslim world. You will notice that the sentiment of punishment is more prevelant in poorer Muslim countries. There aren't millions/thousands/hundreds of people dieing to it every year like there is under atheist regimes so it is a very minor point I will concede to.

 

[Gameface]

I admit this is common throughout the Muslim world. However, there is nothing in the Qur'an that says you should kill/punish people who leave Islam. Listen people do not like hearing that you are a different religion than them. For example usually when someone asks what religion you are they don't really care what you believe in, they just want to hear validation for their own beliefs. This insecurity is also present in the Muslim world. You will notice that the sentiment of punishment is more prevelant in poorer Muslim countries. There aren't millions/thousands/hundreds of people dieing to it every year like there is under atheist regimes so it is a very minor point I will concede to.

Atheist regimes are killing people specifically for leaving Atheism? Link?

 

[The Black Swordsman]

Atheist regimes are killing people specifically for leaving Atheism? Link?

Nice straw man I never said atheists are killing people for leaving atheism. So you resort to straw manning me... Atheism are killing people because atheists don't value human life. Many atheists do value human life but let me guess those atheists that don't value aren't "true atheists." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman. If I were to say "those Muslims that kill others aren't true Muslims" you will throw the no true scotsman fallacy at me but when it is done on your side you most likely will irrationally give them a free pass.

 

[MVP]

Qur'an says to kill Kafirs only in self defense, it specifically states not to kill peaceful unbelievers. It says not only to give peace back to peaceful unbelievers but to protect them as well.
.

You are a joke. In what self defense muslims killed 270 mil africans, christians, hindus and buddhists when converting them to islam and invading their lands? Look at the islamic countries map. It started in Arabia and took over christian, hindu or buddhist lands via what? Self defense?
Here is a question for you - was prophet Muhammad peaceful man like Jesus or Buddha for example?

And since you will lie ( or maybe you do not know) I will provide an answer

Muhammad was a narcissist, a pedophile, a mass murderer,
a terrorist, a misogynist, a lecher, a cult leader, a madman
a rapist, a torturer, an assassin and a looter."

Former Muslim Ali Sina offered $50,000 to anyone
who could prove otherwise based on Islamic texts.

The reward has gone unclaimed.

 

[Gameface]

Nice straw man I never said atheists are killing people for leaving atheism. So you resort to straw manning me... Atheism are killing people because atheists don't value human life. Many atheists do value human life but let me guess those atheists that don't value aren't "true atheists." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman. If I were to say "those Muslims that kill others aren't true Muslims" you will throw the no true scotsman fallacy at me but when it is done on your side you most likely will irrationally give them a free pass.

I asked you a question. I even quoted your entire post as I see that matters to you.

Can you explain this statement again

There aren't millions/thousands/hundreds of people dieing to it every year like there is under atheist regimes so it is a very minor point I will concede to.

I read that as atheist regimes are killing people for atheism more than Muslim regimes are killing people over Islam.

Not trying to straw-man you dog. Although you seem to always want to argue over logical fallacies instead of the idiotic crap you spew (oh no, ad-hominem attack alert).

 

[Deleted member 365]

Here's lookin at you, USA.

USA crashed planes into skyscapers in the ME?

Americans force women to marry their rapists (or face death)?

The closest thing to this would have been that ridiculous "legitimate rape" nonsense spewed by that one Representative. He lost his election and no legislation was ever passed. I'm one of the most critical of American foreign policy but rationalizing the complete backwards societies created and maintained by Islamic states to American's intrusion throughout the world is ridiculous.

 

[Deleted member 365]

Blatant Cherry picking. In 2004 the FBI sent an agent in a California Mosque pretending to be a radical Muslim. He got reported by people from the mosque shortly. I posted the link before on this website I can go searching for it again if you please.

270 million people in 1400 years compared to the 100 million in the last century from atheists/ antireligion.

I get tired of the whole crusades/Spanish Inquisition comparisons.

It's funny that Muslims must go 500+ years into the past to point out Christian mass intolerance and cruelty while Christians need to go 500+ years into the past to point out Muslim tolerance and charity. One must go 500 years into the past to see Christian "darkness" while one must go 500+ years into the past to see Muslim "enlightenment."

Look at how western countries, once dominated by theocracies, have changed over the past 500 years! Look at how they have progressed in just 100 years. Meanwhile, look at how much eastern muslin countries have regressed over 500 years... Look at how the entire landscape of the ME has changed in just 100 years!

There once was a time when women had rights. They could own property, create schools, and actually had legal power. There was a time in the Ottoman Empire when education, science, music, and culture wasn't seen as a threat to Islam. In fact, if one were to go back in time 500+ years and compared Christian nations vs Islamic nations, one would see a complete reversal of what we see today. 500+ years ago, religion ruled Christian nations and science was condemned. How many scientists, reformers, civil rights advocates, writers, and other intellectuals were tortured and killed by Christian rulers? Yet, at the same time, culture was flourishing in the east! Science, math, music, women's rights, etc were progressing along!

Muslim nations were the beacon of hope and freedom whereas Christian nations were seen as oppressive, backwards, and completely lacking in culture.

Then... It all changed.

Western cultures began to embrace science and writing during the enlightenment.

Empires began to become more secular as theocracies were rejected. The east began to lose political and economic power. Instead of playing ball with the rest of us, they rejected the very qualities and assets which helped power their dominance for hundreds of years. Like a bunch of poor sports, they stopped embracing math and science, rules regarding women changed, and governments became more intolerant.

While the west embraced math and science as their savior, the east blamed it for their downfall.

Again, just look at the last 100 years. As the west embraced science, secularism, women's rights, the east as rejected them. The most severe Islamic states look to "bring back the good times" by becoming even more radical and intolerant. "Well gee, if science is what got us into this mess well then surely embracing an ultra-conservative form of Islam will bring us back the old power and glory for sure!"

That seems to be the prevailing attitude of so many Muslims today.

One of my biggest beefs with Muslims today is... Why the hell are western societies the ones advocating women's rights? Where are the "tolerant" Muslims? If Islam is so peaceful, then why the hell aren't they marching in masses to protest the violence throughout the middle east? If they aren't "backwards" then why aren't they embracing culture? Instead, we see the complete opposite. they're always the victims of unfair "western" exploiters. Wah wah wah.

Look at yourself in the mirror damn it! Western powers aren't forcing you to kill women, marry their rapists, or execute homosexuals. We aren't forcing you to arrange your marriages.

You can't keep blaming everything on the US and Israel. The "Great Satan" isn't the west. The "Great Satan" is yourself.

https://www.academia.edu/193378/Women_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

The Mihrimah mosque in Edirne(Adrianople), Thrace, begun in 1555 under the patronage of Hürrem Sultan's daughter, was designed and executed by the greatest Ottoman architect of the early-modern era, Sinan. The Yeni Valide Mosque in Istanbul, begun in 1598 by Safiye Sultan, is another dazzling example of royal women'sarchitectural patronage

Ottoman women also created numerous awqaf (plural of “waqf”; pious, charitable institutions), which might include schools, hospitals, caravansaries, baths, fountains, soup kitchens, hostels, and mosques.Royal women were especially active in establishing charitable foundations throughout the empire, financed by their own ample personal resources.

As their charitable activities suggest, women also played a significant role in the Ottoman economy.Women were important landholders; some even held timars (military fiefs). They could inherit and apportion property, and they often played an active role in managing their own wealth. Women borrowed and lent money, served as tax farmers (private tax collectors), and entered into a variety of business partnerships.... They had the right to control property, and neither fathers nor husbands could make use of this property without their consent.

 

[moevillini]

...Look at how the entire landscape of the ME has changed in just 100 years!

There once was a time when women had rights. They could own property, create schools, and actually had legal power. There was a time in the Ottoman Empire when education, science, music, and culture wasn't seen as a threat to Islam. In fact, if one were to go back in time 500+ years and compared Christian nations vs Islamic nations, one would see a complete reversal of what we see today. 500+ years ago, religion ruled Christian nations and science was condemned. How many scientists, reformers, civil rights advocates, writers, and other intellectuals were tortured and killed by Christian rulers? Yet, at the same time, culture was flourishing in the east! Science, math, music, women's rights, etc were progressing along...

we owe ZERO to the Arab world, literally ZERO. And for that, just about everything. Without the Arabic numeral system, we might very well still be tallying things up with C's and V's and M's and I's - - and not a placeholder in the bunch.

I've always found it very interesting to consider where we would be without zero.

 

[Deleted member 365]

Israel-Palestine conflict isn't one side saying "Moses was the greater prophet" and the other side saying "No Muhammad is the greater prophet" and then killing each other. It is over land. Ireland with the Catholics and protestants it is over who controls the country. India and Pakistan? Over Kashmir. Even Osama Bin Laden blew up the twin towers because he felt America was invading Arabs. Even if the whole world was one religion or irreligion there would be people fighting over the same things. Whenever an atheist kills you write it up for "oh it is other political reasons not atheism" whenever Muslims kills you automatically blame Islam and not political reasons.

So Osama was really just a misunderstood Gandhi now? Is that what Muslims are saying?

If Osama really wanted to get the USA out of Saudi Arabia, why didn't he use his power and resources to protest his own government? Why not get on his own people for doing so much damn business with the USA? And did Osama and his people really not benefit from doing business with the USA? Really? So Saudi Arabia and so many other nations in the ME never ever ever benefited from doing business with the west?

Instead, Osama Bin Laden did the dumbest thing in perhaps the history of the world. I mean, hell, even Hitler, who invaded the Soviet Union in the fall, is laughing at Osama's stupidity!
So he wanted the USA out of the the ME.... So his plan was to do the ONLY thing that would guarantee continued American presence throughout the ME: Attack the United States directly, on its home soil.

Seriously?

And what did he hope to accomplish?

Lets assume that everything had gone to plan. Best case scenario for Osama: Lets assume that the Twin Towers go down and the shockwave takes out half the New York city. Wall Street, the Empire State Building, whatever, is gone. Lets assume that the Pentagon is destroyed. Lets assume that the other plane, which crashed in Pennsylvania, takes out the White House. Millions flock to Osama's side because this attack was just so... "Inspirational."

So you have half of New York gone.
The US Pentagon is destroyed.
And the entire Executive Branch is gone.

Is that really going to keep the US from coming and kicking ***? Is this really going to prevent western Democracies from uniting against you? Is this really going to help your cause?

Essentially, prior to WWII, it would have been like one of Poland's Dukes, trying to gain peace with Germany by coming over into Berlin wearing a yellow star on the chest and waving a red Communist flag, and kicking one of Hitler's dogs in the head.

If Arabic countries really want the US out of the ME, they should do 4 things:

#1 Embrace change. Become more tolerant. Stop treating women like toilets. Embrace math and science. Play by the same game we are playing. Look at how Japan went from being a backwards nation (prior to opening up to the west in the late 19th century), to incredibly radical and intolerant nation (early-mid 20th century), to a thriving and tolerant democracy today.
#2 Stop making yourselves so rich off selling oil.
#3 Stop threatening Israel. You folks don't realize that the more you pose a threat to Israel the more the US will support them. If there isn't any threat to Israel then the US will have no choice but to lower its' own influence.
#4 Similar to #3, stop being so radical and stop associating yourselves with terrorist organizations and groups. Again, you're just giving us an excuse to place armies at your doorstep, bases in your country, and ships in your oceans.

 

[Deleted member 365]

we owe ZERO to the Arab world, literally ZERO. And for that, just about everything. Without the Arabic numeral system, we might very well still be tallying things up with C's and V's and M's and I's - - and not a placeholder in the bunch.

I've always found it very interesting to consider where we would be without zero.

Exactly.

Again.... Lets assume you know NOTHING about the modern era. Lets assume you just could compare the 2 different ideologies/geographic locations 500 years ago. If you had to take a guess, which one would be thriving in an international market, invented the Atomic bomb, traveled to the moon, etc, and embraced civil rights and Democracy, you would 100 % of the time guessed Middle Eastern countries/remnants of the Ottoman Empire.

If you had to guess which countries would have sucked economically, rejected science, and lived in intolerant theocratic governments, you would have guessed western and central Europe.

My oh my, how things have changed since the enlightenment...

Could you imagine what would have been of the United States of America had Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, etc been theocratic Muslims? What would have happened had Locke, instead of advocating for Life, Liberty, and property, declared for something like... Rejection of science, rejection of culture, and the quest of Jihad against the infidels?

 

[Nate505]

More typical muslim "honor" nonsense. This time father kills son because he was gay. And that's in Turkey... country which supposed to be more western and less brainwashed by radical islamists.

https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/f...-case.aspx?PageID=238&NID=47579&NewsCatID=341

I don't consider myself to be a Muslim basher, and think that in general their religion is just as valid as any other one, but I will say it does bug me when I hear stories like this and see how their women are treated in their societies and that there is no huge widespread outrage among most of their populace.