I think you missed something...
I think you missed something...
Just because the U.S. didn't do those things and because we feel better about the positives and negative of our culture over the positives and negatives of theirs doesn't mean there isn't significant room for improvement here. And I for one don't need the ME to be perfect before I want to start making those improvements.
The Black Swordsman
Well-Known Member
I can tell we have a lot of fox news watchers here in Jazzfanz as I give you FBI statistics, Quranic verses and data to support my points and you guys simply ignore everything I say and say that you are right and I am wrong when you have no evidence backing what you say.
About Muhammad being a pedophile. Muhammad was 25 years old when he married his first wife. His wife was 40 years old at the time, 15 years older than him. There are multiple hadiths that say this from multiple narrations. There is only 1 narrator that says that Muhammad married a 9 year old later in his life. That haddith was said by an 80 year old (who Never Met Aisha or Muhammad btw, this he supposedly heard this) and the Haddith itself says that he had faulty memory. You throw something like this when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand for shock. It is ok cornered rats do act desperate in situations.
Thriller, Osama hated the Saudi government. He used to be a great friend of Saudi government due to his wealth and influence. However when Saudi started letting Americans on its soil Osama soured toward the government.
To Thrillers numbers:
to #1 in Qatar has the fastest growing economy in the world, Turkey is like number 6 or 7ish. Muslim countries are accepting science and math don't worry.
#2 Paradox of the plenty
#3 Stop defending against Israel occupation?
#4 Add up how many terrorists there are in Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and those other terrorists groups. You will get a number less then .01% of the Muslim population.
Gameface it is very obvious that Atheist regimes have killed way more than Islam. Pol Pot killed 2 million. Osama Bin Laden killed less than 3 thousand on 9/11.
About Muhammad being a pedophile. Muhammad was 25 years old when he married his first wife. His wife was 40 years old at the time, 15 years older than him. There are multiple hadiths that say this from multiple narrations. There is only 1 narrator that says that Muhammad married a 9 year old later in his life. That haddith was said by an 80 year old (who Never Met Aisha or Muhammad btw, this he supposedly heard this) and the Haddith itself says that he had faulty memory. You throw something like this when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand for shock. It is ok cornered rats do act desperate in situations.
Thriller, Osama hated the Saudi government. He used to be a great friend of Saudi government due to his wealth and influence. However when Saudi started letting Americans on its soil Osama soured toward the government.
To Thrillers numbers:
to #1 in Qatar has the fastest growing economy in the world, Turkey is like number 6 or 7ish. Muslim countries are accepting science and math don't worry.
#2 Paradox of the plenty
#3 Stop defending against Israel occupation?
#4 Add up how many terrorists there are in Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and those other terrorists groups. You will get a number less then .01% of the Muslim population.
Gameface it is very obvious that Atheist regimes have killed way more than Islam. Pol Pot killed 2 million. Osama Bin Laden killed less than 3 thousand on 9/11.
MVP
Well-Known Member
2mil way more then 270mil? And you call yourself a man of science???
MVP
Well-Known Member
In the span of a dozen years, he married eleven women and had access to an array of sex slaves. When he wanted a woman, even if she were the wife of another man, his own daughter-in-law, or a child as young as 6-years-old , Muhammad was able to justify his lust and inevitable consummation with an appeal to Allah’s revealed will for his sex life - which was then preserved forever in the Quran, to be faithfully memorized by future generations for whom it has no possible relevance.
The first verse of Sura 66 is a good example of this. It was narrated by Muhammad to his wives shortly after two of them pressured him into not visiting a favorite sex slave:
O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you, seeking to please your wives? (Quran 66:1)
Allah (according to Muhammad) was so upset with his prophet for denying himself an afternoon of pleasure with the concubine that Allah had provided for him that it was a good thing for Muhammad that Allah was a forgiving and merciful god! (For the Muslim faithful, it must surely be a source of embarrassment that Allah evidently had more interest in Muhammad's personal sex life than he did about tolerance or universal love. The god of Islam encourages sex with slaves in several other places as well).
Muhammad set the example by marrying and having sex with Aisha when she was only 9-years-old:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: “Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine.” (Sahih Muslim 3309) This is confirmed in many other hadith as well.
According to the most reliable traditions, Aisha brought her dolls to Muhammad’s house for play and he would fondle the little girl in the tub while taking baths with her. Aisha was just a teenager by the time Muhammad died, but she had already spent over half her life in marriage to him
Even worse for Muslims is that part of the Qur’an was actually “revealed” while Muhammad was in bed with this little girl:
[Muhammad said] "…the Divine Inspirations do not come to me on any of the beds except that of Aisha." (Bukhari 47:755)
jimmy eat jazz
Well-Known Member
These types of threads always discourage me when I see the overt bigotry on such display. I have a bit more background than others in this area (it doesn't make me an expert but gives me perspective) as I have worked in a number of Muslim countries in North Africa, South Asia, Central Asia, and the Middle East. Without exception, the people I have worked with have been friendly, courteous, and just normal folks like you and me. Almost all were Muslim, some devout (e.g., would interrupt meetings to pray, actually we continued talking while different people took turns going into the corner to pray), some were not devout (a good friend in Bangladesh who had an alcohol collection par none). A real eye opener, and one in my naiveté I really didn't expect, was when I worked several weeks in the West Bank. In my opinion, the Palestinians have very legitimate grips against Israel (it cuts both ways, not saying it's one sided), but without exception, when I talked to them their greatest desire was just to end the conflict and get on with their lives. Not a single radical among them, just normal folk. I'm not naive myself, I know there are lots of bad people out there, and lots of bad people who claim the mantel of Islam and who use this mantel for their own purposes or deluded means, but I don't see them. I just see normal people like you and me struggling on a day to day basis to live and derive some happiness from their lives. They're not saints or devils, just . . . people covering the entire spectrum of bad to good, just like here in the good ol' US and just like everywhere else.
Now, there are definitely things about some practice of Islam I don't like, particularly how it hyper sexualizes and, in my opinion, oppresses women. I frankly hate this, and it's hard for me to see it. I have hope, however, that this will change over time, particularly if Islamic countries can ever figure out the balanced economic growth thing and women get more education, participate more in the economy, political, and social life--the same gradual change we went through here. Some countries I have higher hopes for than others. I reasonably certain, though, that isolated the Muslim world will not accomplish this objective. As I see it, the biggest risk, and greatest cause of the West's problems with Islam, is the aimlessness and lack of jobs/opportunities among its young men, which makes them quite susceptible to radicalization of older, evil, manipulative men. Women do get radicalized, but dime to dollar you see an example of Islamist terror/violence, and its a young man in 20s or early 30s. Then there's also the old guard, hard core traditionalists not well suited to moder life, much like you see, in my opinion, among the old school Evangelicals in the US (one of the hot beds of bigotry in this country, though not defining by any means of the enire group).
I could address all the other arguments that I think are faulty in this thread (e.g., atheism at fault for mass murder--this is one of the biggest red herrings), the pass given to the widespread nature of Christian bigotry, oppression, and violence, that moderate Muslims are not speaking out (they do but you're not likely to hear about it from Fox news) and so forth. But I'm just so sick to death of people painting an entire population of, literally, billions of people by the bad deeds of a small handful.
Now, there are definitely things about some practice of Islam I don't like, particularly how it hyper sexualizes and, in my opinion, oppresses women. I frankly hate this, and it's hard for me to see it. I have hope, however, that this will change over time, particularly if Islamic countries can ever figure out the balanced economic growth thing and women get more education, participate more in the economy, political, and social life--the same gradual change we went through here. Some countries I have higher hopes for than others. I reasonably certain, though, that isolated the Muslim world will not accomplish this objective. As I see it, the biggest risk, and greatest cause of the West's problems with Islam, is the aimlessness and lack of jobs/opportunities among its young men, which makes them quite susceptible to radicalization of older, evil, manipulative men. Women do get radicalized, but dime to dollar you see an example of Islamist terror/violence, and its a young man in 20s or early 30s. Then there's also the old guard, hard core traditionalists not well suited to moder life, much like you see, in my opinion, among the old school Evangelicals in the US (one of the hot beds of bigotry in this country, though not defining by any means of the enire group).
I could address all the other arguments that I think are faulty in this thread (e.g., atheism at fault for mass murder--this is one of the biggest red herrings), the pass given to the widespread nature of Christian bigotry, oppression, and violence, that moderate Muslims are not speaking out (they do but you're not likely to hear about it from Fox news) and so forth. But I'm just so sick to death of people painting an entire population of, literally, billions of people by the bad deeds of a small handful.
The Black Swordsman
Well-Known Member
Its a shame I have to respond to your pathetic response after Jimmy's brilliant post (which I don't agree with entirely but still respect).
Give me a single haddith not narrated by that 80 year old man who bukhari mentioned had faulty memory. There is none. There are multiple haddiths written but every single one of them has the same narrator.
You simply got utterly defeated on the debate of whether or not Islam is violent and have resorted to slander and lies on Prophet Muhammad.
The only Qur'an verse you quoted was a verse that says to please your wives. Really? Thats your damning verse of the Qur'an?? I guess in atheism pleasing your wives aren't encouraged but in Islam it is.
The Black Swordsman
Well-Known Member
It is not fair to judge Islam on Osama Bin Laden, Hussein, etc. How do you like it if I judge Atheism and/or antireligion on Pol Pot, Mao,Hitler, and Stalin. This is what I am saying. You guys than quickly point out how you hate being judged on Pol Pot etc.
In regards to woman no where in the Qur'an is the word Hijab mentioned.
JimLes
Well-Known Member
Atheism is now an organized movement? You're stupider than I thought.
The Black Swordsman
Well-Known Member
Where did I say atheism is an organized movement? Straw manned me here. Wait until you are 12 or 13 years old before you debate me btw by than you will develop some sort of rationality and won't be as defeated as easily hopefully.
JimLes
Well-Known Member
You stated that it's unfair to judge Muslims because they belong to the same organized community as Osama or Saddam and then you compare that to judging atheists based on belonging to what, exactly? Being a Muslim is a choice. You can choose to be a part of the Muslim community or not. I can't choose whether Pol Pot also happens to lack belief in the same fairy tales I do.
The Black Swordsman
Well-Known Member
Atheists are quick to point out when an atheist charity raises money, when a less religious country like Sweden or Norway is successful and they indirectly imply or often even directly state that them lacking religion has helped them. Whenever something is done good by atheists atheism gets credit. When atheists have done bad (and boy some of them really have) atheists quickly shout and insist you cannot blame atheism for their actions. If Islam has to take the blame for Osama, atheism has to take the blame for Pol Pot, Stalin etc. If an atheist scientist is successful in science atheists laud how he is an atheist and keep bringing up people like Osama is a Muslim (most famous scientists are very much theists btw). A complete double standard.
And about the fairy tale comment....
Quran 6:25
And among them are those who listen to you, but We have placed over their hearts coverings, lest they understand it, and in their ears deafness. And if they should see every sign, they will not believe in it. Even when they come to you arguing with you, those who disbelieve say, "This is not but legends of the former peoples."
The Qur'an predicts people lacking in rationality will irrationally without evidence reject Islam and declare it to be fairy tales. Thanks for proving another verse of the Qur'an to be 100% true.