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My faith in Exum has been broken

His drives suck tho. Always with the quick on the off-foot scoop layups that take the defender by surprise. You can't just rely on those and expect to be effective on the offensive end.

Also, a question, but how much improvement can we expect to his handling? Do players typically improve their handles significantly?

They look kind of awkward yeah, but I wouldn't say they suck. Dante is kind of just an awkward looking dude. The ability to finish off the wrong foot and convert is a good skill to have. I think some of it probably has to do with the knee issues he has been facing, probably doesnt have 100% confidence in his knee yet. Will probably need a full season under his belt before that comes back to full strength.

As far as handle, as I've stated previously, I don't think it's as poor as many make it out to be. Can he improve it significantly? I mean, it's not like he is going to become AI one day, he will always have a naturally high dribble because he is a taller PG. The biggest thing is improving strength, that will help his handle more than anything.
 
Not really, because the 5th pick had a ton of trade value that year. If Dante don't deliver, it's a pretty wasted asset for the Jazz.

The position of the draft pick is a sunk cost after it has been used, so it should be irrelevant in evaluating players.
 
I always felt Dante should have done a year or two in college, he always struck me as the sort of young kid who was going to need a little hand holding. You've gotta remember his pathway to the AIS was a bit different to that of most kids, like Ben Simmons he came from a basketball family, so his access top coaching and elite pathways was probably a lot easier than most. Having watched a fair bit of the Jazz this year, he seems to me to have absolutely no confidence, his defence has also regressed a little this year from his rookie year but I still have faith in the kid, he's too competitive to write off, he'll come good.
 
They look kind of awkward yeah, but I wouldn't say they suck. Dante is kind of just an awkward looking dude. The ability to finish off the wrong foot and convert is a good skill to have. I think some of it probably has to do with the knee issues he has been facing, probably doesnt have 100% confidence in his knee yet. Will probably need a full season under his belt before that comes back to full strength.

As far as handle, as I've stated previously, I don't think it's as poor as many make it out to be. Can he improve it significantly? I mean, it's not like he is going to become AI one day, he will always have a naturally high dribble because he is a taller PG. The biggest thing is improving strength, that will help his handle more than anything.

Gobert is/was a pretty awkward looking dude as well. Many of his moves are awkward I think that is why refs struggle to ref both of them.


Remember the first half of the season when Rudy was playing his second year in the NBA when he was 1 year older than Exum. I am guessing people would have been pissed off if he was a high pick. Expectations from fans are higher on players picked high fair or not. People loved Gobert when he was 21 but I dont think anyone expected this level out of him. I think most of us were excited about him for his defense coming off the bench and maybe a starter if he could figure out how to shoot at all or hold onto the ball. He was a mess at times when he was Exums age but showed flashes. It takes a lot more time to develop skills to be a good pg than a big man. Compare some stats with Exum at 21 and Gobert at 21 it is oddly pretty similar. Almost the same off and def rating, same points per game per 36 on the same shooting percentages. Rudy turned the ball over a lot more.

Wish we had called Gobert a bust when he was 21 and looked awkward and struggled with some basic skills. Similar questions were being asked. Can you teach someone to hold onto the ball? It is hard to compare because we want to win now and the board wanted to tank when Gobert was 21/22.

Gobert spent some time in the D-League I think it was okay for him. Mostly it just made him angry which seems to work for motivating Gobert. I think Exum is better served getting most of the backup PG minutes when Hill is back but if Snyder isnt going to give him those then D-League would be good for him. Then he can bounce back and forth and get minutes. Although I think he has a minute restriction with his knee issues anyways.
 
Gobert is/was a pretty awkward looking dude as well. Many of his moves are awkward I think that is why refs struggle to ref both of them.


Remember the first half of the season when Rudy was playing his second year in the NBA when he was 1 year older than Exum. I am guessing people would have been pissed off if he was a high pick. Expectations from fans are higher on players picked high fair or not. People loved Gobert when he was 21 but I dont think anyone expected this level out of him. I think most of us were excited about him for his defense coming off the bench and maybe a starter if he could figure out how to shoot at all or hold onto the ball. He was a mess at times when he was Exums age but showed flashes. It takes a lot more time to develop skills to be a good pg than a big man. Compare some stats with Exum at 21 and Gobert at 21 it is oddly pretty similar. Almost the same off and def rating, same points per game per 36 on the same shooting percentages. Rudy turned the ball over a lot more.

Wish we had called Gobert a bust when he was 21 and looked awkward and struggled with some basic skills. Similar questions were being asked. Can you teach someone to hold onto the ball? It is hard to compare because we want to win now and the board wanted to tank when Gobert was 21/22.

Gobert spent some time in the D-League I think it was okay for him. Mostly it just made him angry which seems to work for motivating Gobert. I think Exum is better served getting most of the backup PG minutes when Hill is back but if Snyder isnt going to give him those then D-League would be good for him. Then he can bounce back and forth and get minutes. Although I think he has a minute restriction with his knee issues anyways.

Rudy was basically always productive and mentally he had a fire you could see from day one. Ty Corbin was the only non believer. It's a really ****ty comparison.
 
Rudy was basically always productive and mentally he had a fire you could see from day one. Ty Corbin was the only non believer. It's a really ****ty comparison.
He had fire. But he played similar minutes and wasnt productive except defensively. Similar to Exums first year. He dropped the ball a lot, had a lot of turnovers. Shot a poor percentage from the field especially for a big man. He was inconsistent then. Rose colored glasses might be helping. People were excited about Rudy from his summer league games (kind of like Exum last year) but most people were hoping for a solid bench defender or good all around starter. It wasn't until he got to start when Kanter got hurt people started thinking he could be more. The have been very similar just people's expectations are different. If this was Exums rookie year people would also be more excited. Rudy was 21 his rookie year.
 
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He had fire. But he played similar minutes and want productive except defensively. Similar to Exums first year. He dropped the ball a lot, had a lot of turnovers. Shot a poor percentage from the field especially for a big man. He was inconsistent then. Rose colored glasses might be helping. People were excited about Rudy from his summer league games (kind of like Exum last year) but most people were hoping for a solid bench defender or good all around starter. It wasn't until he got to start when Kanter got hurt people started thinking he could be more. The have been very similar just people's expectations are different. If this was Exums rookie year people would also be more excited. Rudy was 21 his rookie year.

He was dominant defensively and he shot 48%... wasn't handed any playing time so only played in 40 games. You could see real flashes and while he wasn't perfect... my only concern with him was durability because of his frame... can't speak for others but you could tell that he'd be a good NBA player if healthy. Good rebounder good shot blocker... his awkwardness was a bit more acceptable because he's a freak of nature physically. He still looks awkward as hell doing some things because of his size.

I see no real comparison here... like at all.
 
He was dominant defensively and he shot 48%... wasn't handed any playing time so only played in 40 games. You could see real flashes and while he wasn't perfect... my only concern with him was durability because of his frame... can't speak for others but you could tell that he'd be a good NBA player if healthy. Good rebounder good shot blocker... his awkwardness was a bit more acceptable because he's a freak of nature physically. He still looks awkward as hell doing some things because of his size.

I see no real comparison here... like at all.

There is a good reason Gobert was sent to the D-League and it wasnt because of Corbin not wanting to play him. He was terrible at times as a 21 year old.

He was terrible offensively and a good defender. Similar to Exum. There have plenty of stats that are the same for them at age 21. Rudy had a worse +/- box score, turned the ball over more despite touching the ball less, Exum has a better offensive and Defensive rating. Per 36 they scored the same amount. Although Rudy did obviously rebound better Exum has more assits. Gobert struggled to stay in game because of all the fouls he got which was often why he didnt get more minutes similar to Exum this year. Their TS% is about the same. Rudy couldnt make a FT to save his life back then. Many other advanced stats show them close or a slight edge to Exum.

Rudy struggled more as a 21 year old than Exum has so far this year coming off a major injury. I know people think it was because of Corbin he didnt play more but he was really raw and struggled. He couldnt stop fouling, he was pretty much useless on offense and turned the ball over a lot, like 24% of the time. Advanced stats show Exum as a better defender but I think that has more to do with the team than the individual. Exum was an elite defender pre injury for an 18 year old and will get back to that. He has already greatly improved defensively this season as time goes on.

At 21 Exum and Gobert were both Raw, long for their positions, quick for their positions, lacked meaningful playing time, showed flashes of greatness, got lost at times on the court, foreign players from different systems, defensive first players with flaws that can be fixed and tools to be great. Rudy has taken a great upswing and hopefully Exum can but at the very least there is the potential for that.
 
You see him on the outer in huddles when he use to be the closest to Snyder. I really feel exum is not enjoying his time in Utah, like he once did. As much as i want Exum to be the future leader for the Jazz and be successful as a player, i don't think he can make the leaps necessary under Snyder, and with the win now position the team is in.

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I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that despite Exum playing poorly, the Jazz are having their best start to a season in years. Remember back to when he was drafted and was asked how he would judge whether his rookie season was a success or not, and Exum replied with something along the lines of "I'm not too concerned with my personal stats, as long as I'm helping the team get more wins than last year then that will be a success". In his rookie season he didn't do much personally, but it was clear that Exum being on the floor was having a positive impact on the team, and the Jazz' post all star break run with him starting proved that he was positively affecting the team in the W column. Obviously Gobert was the other big change and he had a much larger impact than Exum did, but Exum was still playing a key role in the starting 5 defending the opposing teams PG, and occasionally their best perimeter threat period.

Before the DNP when he was starting, he was trying to prove that he could positive affect the team on the offensive end as well, but in the process he forgot to stop playing defense. Snyder chewed him out publicly over it, gave him a DNP, and ever since then Exum has completely closed off his offensive game while trying to prove that he can still guard at an elite level defensively - something which he hasn't really done at all. All while his backup PG is playing more minutes than he is and playing crunch time minutes. So he's basically a negative on offense since opposing guards just sag off him, his defense is average/above average at best so he's not having the same impact he had two seasons ago there, and it's obvious just watching the Jazz play that his teammates don't trust him to handle the ball or shoot the three, which results in what we're currently seeing with Exum bringing the ball up, handing it off, and then going to a corner 3pt spot with maybe a downscreen or something along the way. Then players like Hayward/Hood/etc will make a play from the wings, and despite whoever's guarding Exum coming over to help, these players refuse to kick out to Exum because he have zero faith in his ability to do anything offensively. It's pretty well deserved to be honest as Exum hasn't proven to be able to do much with the ball, but it still doesn't help him in terms of development that his teammates are effectively freezing him out of the offense. If Exum tries to do something with the ball at the beginning of the shot clock and makes a bad play, he gets yanked pretty quickly by Snyder, so he's really stuck in a hard place and isn't much of a fit with the Jazz until he can prove he can defend at an elite level again.(edit - it's worth noting that Mack has a little bit more freedom when bringing the ball up to run a PnR at the beginning of the shot clock to create some offense and gets a bit of leeway if he makes a bad play out of it, which Exum definitely would have noticed).

Exum knowing that he isn't a fit with this current Jazz squad as it currently stands yet they're doing better than they ever have with him on the bench is the biggest thing crushing his confidence right now imo. Even just his comments earlier in the year where he said something like "the bench is no place for a player to be" reinforce this suspicion, despite that being about his injury last season.

He had plenty of confidence in preseason, was surpassing our expectations, so something happened along the way. Snyder is a tough coach and I think Exum is pressing too much to please him, he needs to be himself not try and be the player Snyder or the media envisions him as. To me that's a more Ricky Rubio type player who probably isn't going to be an all star but will definitely help you win games.
See to me, if he tries to be the player that Snyder wants him to be then he'll be more likely to end up as a Rubio type of player who runs the offense, plays defense, and takes the open shot when he has to, rather than the player Exum wants to be. I think Exum wants to be more than that, and he still has all the tools to be the kind of player he wants to be post ACL tear as his athleticism still seems to be all there, but I think that preseason and pre-dog house Exum gave everyone a look at the player he wants to be. He wants to be a guy who handles the ball, runs a lot of PnR, tries to get to the paint and make plays for himself or others there, runs a fast pace offense and be a guy who you can give the ball to make a play if the offense bogs down. His rookie season he didn't show much of that as he was just trying to learn the game, stay healthy, and try not to hurt the team on either end of the floor. I think post ACL tear he wanted to prove that he could do the things that were on his predraft scouting report, as that is the Exum that I was used to seeing prior to entering the NBA, and in the process he was going to make a bunch of mistakes as he got back to playing against elite atheltes who are just as big and fast as he is. Except now he doesn't have the freedom to do that as the Jazz want to win now (and rightfully so), and Exum getting called out by Snyder for trying to do too much and forgetting his job really crushed his confidence, as he's much more timid and worried about hurting the team again with real tangible consequences now in place like getting pulled at any stage whenever he starts to hurt the team.

So I'm not too sure what to make of it, as on one hand I think Exum has all the tools to be a guy who can be a #1/2/3 option offensively and be dynamic with the ball, but at the same time I know that the Jazz don't want him to try and be that guy mid game as they know he's got a steep learning curve and they're trying to win now. The selfish part of me that just wants to see Exum at his best wants him to get traded to a rebuilding team which has time to let Exum learn through his mistakes, as that will let him be the best sidekick to Simmons in the 2020 Tokyo Olympics to have a crack at taking down Team USA, but there's also a part of me that knows that it's not his role on this Jazz team and he needs to learn how to adapt to still impact the game positively instead of taking the woe is me kind of attitude and distancing himself from the rest of the Jazz like SoundWave alluded to.

He's still so young and the season still has a long way to go so who knows, we could all be looking back at this thread in March and wondering why we were ever worried about him. But as it is there's a conflict between what Snyder wants him to do (Rubio-esque kind of player) and what Exum wants to be (Tony Parker-esque kind of player)
 
Good post sandman. I think players rarely end up in the best case scenario for themselves. As selfish fans we want them to conform to our system and even excel when its not within the context of their skill set. I wish the best for him but really hope we find a way to incorporate him, nurture him and help him feel like an important cog in our wheel until he reaches his potential.
 
See to me, if he tries to be the player that Snyder wants him to be then he'll be more likely to end up as a Rubio type of player who runs the offense, plays defense, and takes the open shot when he has to, rather than the player Exum wants to be. I think Exum wants to be more than that, and he still has all the tools to be the kind of player he wants to be post ACL tear as his athleticism still seems to be all there, but I think that preseason and pre-dog house Exum gave everyone a look at the player he wants to be. He wants to be a guy who handles the ball, runs a lot of PnR, tries to get to the paint and make plays for himself or others there, runs a fast pace offense and be a guy who you can give the ball to make a play if the offense bogs down. His rookie season he didn't show much of that as he was just trying to learn the game, stay healthy, and try not to hurt the team on either end of the floor. I think post ACL tear he wanted to prove that he could do the things that were on his predraft scouting report, as that is the Exum that I was used to seeing prior to entering the NBA, and in the process he was going to make a bunch of mistakes as he got back to playing against elite atheltes who are just as big and fast as he is. Except now he doesn't have the freedom to do that as the Jazz want to win now (and rightfully so), and Exum getting called out by Snyder for trying to do too much and forgetting his job really crushed his confidence, as he's much more timid and worried about hurting the team again with real tangible consequences now in place like getting pulled at any stage whenever he starts to hurt the team.

So I'm not too sure what to make of it, as on one hand I think Exum has all the tools to be a guy who can be a #1/2/3 option offensively and be dynamic with the ball, but at the same time I know that the Jazz don't want him to try and be that guy mid game as they know he's got a steep learning curve and they're trying to win now. The selfish part of me that just wants to see Exum at his best wants him to get traded to a rebuilding team which has time to let Exum learn through his mistakes, as that will let him be the best sidekick to Simmons in the 2020 Tokyo Olympics to have a crack at taking down Team USA, but there's also a part of me that knows that it's not his role on this Jazz team and he needs to learn how to adapt to still impact the game positively instead of taking the woe is me kind of attitude and distancing himself from the rest of the Jazz like SoundWave alluded to.

He's still so young and the season still has a long way to go so who knows, we could all be looking back at this thread in March and wondering why we were ever worried about him. But as it is there's a conflict between what Snyder wants him to do (Rubio-esque kind of player) and what Exum wants to be (Tony Parker-esque kind of player)

This simply isn't true. Snyder has said he wants Dante to be more aggressive several times in conferences. He would never yell at Dante for a drive where he didn't finish.
Dante is simply unsure of himself on drives in the NBA, he is not a leaper so has a hard time finishing over the trees. I agree Utah may not be the best team for him at this point,
as they are close to full fledged win now mode and can't sacrifice 20 minutes a game for player development.
 
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