No Extension for Walker Kessler?

[Elizah Huge]

We're all excited about Walker last night, and we should be. Who knows what the rest of the season holds, but that was about as promising as you can get. I really don't know how you can look at that and say, wow the Jazz did a really good job here. That's just how this works. If he sucked we know with 100% certainty that people would be saying "thank god we didn't extend him".

I think anyone rationally would agree we should have extended him if the number was right. We don’t know what any numbers were though that’s the thing. If it came out that he would have agreed to 25M/year then yeah we fumbled that. If it was 30M and he ends up getting 35M it’s not that big of a deal because we had a full extra season to make sure that he’s worth that.

 

[KqWIN]

I think anyone rationally would agree we should have extended him if the number was right. We don’t know what any numbers were though that’s the thing. If it came out that he would have agreed to 25M/year then yeah we fumbled that. If it was 30M and he ends up getting 35M it’s not that big of a deal because we had a full extra season to make sure that he’s worth that.

You're 100% right that we don't know what the numbers were, and because of that we also can't know how big of a mistake it may be. But we also 100% know that the better Kessler plays, the stronger the argument is that we should have extended him and vice versa. That's not brainrot.

 

[Elizah Huge]

You're 100% right that we don't know what the numbers were, and because of that we also can't know how big of a mistake it may be. But we also 100% know that the better Kessler plays, the stronger the argument is that we should have extended him and vice versa. That's not brainrot.

The use of brain rot is killing me.

 

[fishonjazz]

I think there is truth to the hardy not envisioning a Kessler/Allen/gobert/etc type of center for his team going forward.
Since the day hardy and Kessler got together on the same team I have felt that hardy hasn't used him enough.

All this is fine btw. Hardy may just prefer an okur type center to a gobert type center. Which is ok. But I hope that if this is the case then we at least get a pick or two from someone who does like the the gobert/Kessler style of center.

On the other hand, maybe Kessler continues to improve his 3 ball, free throw shooting, and playmaking and becomes the ideal center in every way to hardy. If that's the case it would have been better to sign him for less money than more.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Or they were just way too far apart…

They don't know how far apart they were though.

If you walk into the dealership and offer $10k below invoice and the salesman goes "how about full sticker?" and then you walk off the lot.... do you really know what the price of the car would have been?

 

[gomretat]

I think there is truth to the hardy not envisioning a Kessler/Allen/gobert/etc type of center for his team going forward.
Since the day hardy and Kessler got together on the same team I have felt that hardy hasn't used him enough.

All this is fine btw. Hardy may just prefer an okur type center to a gobert type center. Which is ok. But I hope that if this is the case then we at least get a pick or two from someone who does like the the gobert/Kessler style of center.

On the other hand, maybe Kessler continues to improve his 3 ball, free throw shooting, and playmaking and becomes the ideal center in every way to hardy. If that's the case it would have been better to sign him for less money than more.

I have wondered about how Hardy and AInge feel about a Kessler type of center but don't think Kessler is a Gobert type or a Memo type. I would say it is clear that at least AInge had no interest in a Gobert type.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I have wondered about how Hardy and AInge feel about a Kessler type of center but don't think Kessler is a Gobert type or a Memo type. I would say it is clear that at least AInge had no interest in a Gobert type.

I just think that size is all the way back and you won't have the luxury of having the size you need also be able to shoot. You will need a few different types of bigs unless you have a Jokic or Wemby.

Its also on a coach to bend to the strengths of their roster. You can't be so locked in that you dismiss useful players cuz they aren't the ideal player for what you ideally want.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

We can make up any numbers we want to put the blame on one side or the other. It could be the case that either side was being completely unreasonable, it's all BS until we actually know the numbers. But it's pretty simple logic to say that if Kessler plays well, he's going to get more than what we could have extended him for. If he plays poorly, he's going to get less than what we could have extended him for. Kessler bet on himself, the Jazz bet against him.

And no, I do not believe in this "cap space preservation" thing. I am in full agreement with @Handlogten's Heros that this a dumb explanation. Long term financial relief from a front loaded contract is significantly more important.

On the pod I said that the acid test for the cap space theory is whether they pick up or decline Cody's option. If 10M in cap space is worth fussing with Walker's extension, then Cody's option would free up another $5M in "flexibility".

 

[Elizah Huge]

They don't know how far apart they were though.

If you walk into the dealership and offer $10k below invoice and the salesman goes "how about full sticker?" and then you walk off the lot.... do you really know what the price of the car would have been?

You’re telling me they didn’t have an idea? Lol come on now. There’s just no way.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

On the pod I said that the acid test for the cap space theory is whether they pick up or decline Cody's option. If 10M in cap space is worth fussing with Walker's extension, then Cody's option would free up another $5M in "flexibility".

Except that isnt true.

Them keeping/not keeping Cody only has to do with what they think of Cody.

 

[gomretat]

I just think that size is all the way back and you won't have the luxury of having the size you need also be able to shoot. You will need a few different types of bigs unless you have a Jokic or Wemby.

Its also on a coach to bend to the strengths of their roster. You can't be so locked in that you dismiss useful players cuz they aren't the ideal player for what you ideally want.

Agreed on all points. And it fascinates me that the Wemby year when we could have tanked we sat in Limbo - maybe the smartest year to tank in decades.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Im not going to fully defend the Jazz FO. I have a big amount of skepticism they can do anything with the cap-space gained from not extending Kessler, but until that plan completely fails I'm not going to take a hard stance against the no extension for Walker.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

You’re telling me they didn’t have an idea? Lol come on now. There’s just no way.

I didn't say they had no idea. They don't know how far apart they really were though. If one is sitting at 20M and the other at 30M you may think it lands at 25M... but unless you do the work you don't know if its more like 23 or 28. You also never know when one side might cave in... we shut the door so early in the weirdest way possible. Does that say "we tried to negotiate here but Walker's camp wanted too much".

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Agreed on all points. And it fascinates me that the Wemby year when we could have tanked we sat in Limbo - maybe the smartest year to tank in decades.

We have commitment issues. We just do. Its all over the place.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Except that isnt true.

Them keeping/not keeping Cody only has to do with what they think of Cody.

Not necessarily. We also know a bit about what they think about Cody based on guys getting fired and him being out of the rotation. If cap space is worth sacrificing some benefits with a player that is actually good and may be your 2nd best player currently... who is also young... and is also perfect for the timeline of the team... then cap space must be VERY important. Certainly more important than a guy that may wash out of the league in a year or two and if he pans out is likely a 4th or 5th bench wing?

If cap space is really part of the strategy why wouldn't it matter in other areas where we could clear some space.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Not necessarily. We also know a bit about what they think about Cody based on guys getting fired and him being out of the rotation. If cap space is worth sacrificing some benefits with a player that is actually good and may be your 2nd best player currently... who is also young... and is also perfect for the timeline of the team... then cap space must be VERY important. Certainly more important than a guy that may wash out of the league in a year or two and if he pans out is likely a 4th or 5th bench wing?

If cap space is really part of the strategy why wouldn't it matter in other areas where we could clear some space.

I mean, they obviously think Cody sucks now. Everyone knows that and everyone can see that, but I dont think they are ready to cut bait because of his physical tools. It's kind of the same thing OKC is doing with Ousmane Dieng. Yeah, he sucks, but he's tall/long/athletic and plays defense, so they dont mind holding onto him to see if he ever breaks out.

The reason, I believe, that the Cody cap doesnt influence the total cap situation is because the cap space they have with Walker's hold is what they want. They dont need more. They will do whatever move they are attempting to do, then sign Kessler. If Kessler ends up being more expensive because of it, it seems to be a sacrifice/risk they are willing to make.

And maybe they just want Walker to be a better basketball player. The issues with the Jazz/Walker are more about the Jazz believing in Walker and believing he can do more, not that they dont like him. They want him to be better at the small things and maybe not giving him the deal is part of a way to motivate him to do those things. Walker has always been a bit soft and at time unconfident. Maybe going out and balling out in his contract year is the motivation he needs to take the next step into being a legitimate top 10 center and a guy who can contend for All-D teams/All-Stars.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I mean, they obviously think Cody sucks now. Everyone knows that and everyone can see that, but I dont think they are ready to cut bait because of his physical tools. It's kind of the same thing OKC is doing with Ousmane Dieng. Yeah, he sucks, but he's tall/long/athletic and plays defense, so they dont mind holding onto him to see if he ever breaks out.

The reason, I believe, that the Cody cap doesnt influence the total cap situation is because the cap space they have with Walker's hold is what they want. They dont need more. They will do whatever move they are attempting to do, then sign Kessler. If Kessler ends up being more expensive because of it, it seems to be a sacrifice/risk they are willing to make.

And maybe they just want Walker to be a better basketball player. The issues with the Jazz/Walker are more about the Jazz believing in Walker and believing he can do more, not that they dont like him. They want him to be better at the small things and maybe not giving him the deal is part of a way to motivate him to do those things. Walker has always been a bit soft and at time unconfident. Maybe going out and balling out in his contract year is the motivation he needs to take the next step into being a legitimate top 10 center and a guy who can contend for All-D teams/All-Stars.

Sure. They know the exact amount of space they need and its 45M... not 50M.

Faith and belief can also motivate. Walker wants to be great. Literally every reporter talks about how he takes losing the hardest.

The parallels to the Hayward situation are pretty amazing here. "Flexibility" has replaced "keep the powder dry". Long term cap planning should be so much more important than trying to make a splash in FA. If they couldn't get the number to 24-27M ish in a fashion that makes sense for the org... fine. But they punted there and its just terrible process and dumb.

You also don't need the full amount of cap space to play in FA. That's some archaic basic thinking. I am not sure what gives me less faith in the org if true. If the cap space is the real reason that doesn't embolden me. If they just aren't sure about Walker and wanted to be able to trade him in season... that also doesn't inspire much confidence for me as its pretty indecisive.

You will have to make some hard choices as an org. They won't all be ripoff trades or easy evaluations. No decision boxes you in sometimes more than a decision will. Its clear we want to have our cake and eat it too... good luck with that.

 

[KqWIN]

On the pod I said that the acid test for the cap space theory is whether they pick up or decline Cody's option. If 10M in cap space is worth fussing with Walker's extension, then Cody's option would free up another $5M in "flexibility".

Even if you convinced me they do care about the cap space....I just think that's plain dumb. Did we forget that we're the Utah freaking Jazz? Cap space is not the right strategy for this franchise and especially not at this time. You know what a good use of cap space for this franchise is? Locking down a front loaded rookie extension that will save you some bucks when you actually expect to be good and have to pay the players you've tanked for and/or create more CAP SPACE in future years. If Kessler has a good year, we've lost out on more cap space over the course of his deal.

Waiting to sign for cap space makes sense when it's a Maxey situation and it's the fun max. You already know what the deal is, they saved like $40M in cap space, and they don't play in Utah.

 

[NAOS_pt2]

Look... I have tried to be like subtle about this. When I say the Jazz never negotiated anything in good faith... that is not a guess. The Jazz made a low ball offer in the neighborhood of the cap hold so that they could say they made an offer. The sides were about $50M apart but the Jazz said "lets pick this up next summer" an insane 3-4 weeks away from the deadline. This is 100% on the Jazz.

They have commitment issues. They are misreading the lay of the land. They "negotiated" in a lazy way. They fumbled the bag and now its a matter of how much damage they did. Indecisiveness is not "Flexibility".

This stinks, man. Thanks for the reports.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Even if you convinced me they do care about the cap space....I just think that's plain dumb. Did we forget that we're the Utah freaking Jazz? Cap space is not the right strategy for this franchise and especially not at this time. You know what a good use of cap space for this franchise is? Locking down a front loaded rookie extension that will save you some bucks when you actually expect to be good and have to pay the players you've tanked for and/or create more CAP SPACE in future years. If Kessler has a good year, we've lost out on more cap space over the course of his deal.

Waiting to sign for cap space makes sense when it's a Maxey situation and it's the fun max. You already know what the deal is, they saved like $40M in cap space, and they don't play in Utah.

The Maxey deal was different because it was max now or max later.

Thinking you need 45M instead of $30M in cap space is just such a boomer way to think about cap space. If you get a commitment from Trae Young you will find a way to do a sign and trade.

The last couple times we have had cap space what happened. We used it to front load and renegotiate and extend guys. We had a chance to do that early.

I also contend there is not a FA you will want to sign for more than $30M next year.