Game Thread Nov 29, 2021 07:00PM MT: Jazz vs. Trail Blazers

[jazfan23]

Portland needs blowing up … Lillard has checked out , and i dunno if it’s me , but Billups looks far to relaxed , like he is having fun and doesn’t seem to care about his team getting pounded …

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Also like that we put the ball in Forrest hands more. Dude can be an effective player with the ball. He's athletic and strong enough to get by defenders with the space they give him, and he usually makes the right pass. The Smitty he did was nasty.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Also like that we put the ball in Forrest hands more. Dude can be an effective player with the ball. He's athletic and strong enough to get by defenders with the space they give him, and he usually makes the right pass. The Smitty he did was nasty.

If he’s going to be out there then he needs to run the actions. Otherwise teams aren’t defending him and when they kick it out to him mostly bad things happen.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

If he’s going to be out there then he needs to run the actions. Otherwise teams aren’t defending him and when they kick it out to him mostly bad things happen.

Teams are actually back to closing out to him though. Last year they were literally ignoring him. Hopefully he's able to get some 3's up soon. He shot it really well in Summer League.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Teams are actually back to closing out to him though. Last year they were literally ignoring him. Hopefully he's able to get some 3's up soon. He shot it really well in Summer League.

I watched his guy sit in the paint... I think we think they are closing out to him because he is driving off of the kick out and not really looking to shoot at all. Turned it over once and I think he setup Rudy with a nice pass on another. I think his shot is too slow and he knows it... so whether or not it is them closing out I think he is kind of a problem because his guy is hanging out in the paint.

I think his NBA offensive skill is really driving and either scoring (now that he is starting to look at the rim again) or kicking it out to start the blender. Using him off ball makes zero sense. I'm good with him on ball as I think it will start some ball movement but I'd like him to threaten the defense with a drive rather than just pass.

 

[KqWIN]

Haven't been a believer in Forrest, but to his credit he's been more aggressive on offense and his lineups are booming. That's the most important thing for this role...that the lineups aren't messed up. It's why I was a fan of Oni's performance last year and that extends to Forrest as of late.

I still don't love the idea of our offense being at the mercy of Trent Forrest's on ball game even if it's the best way to play with him. I much prefer these fill in players to be able to stay out of the way, but if it works it works.

 

[Jingled]

How many games can two way guys play in? Isn't it just around 50? We're going to have to convert Forrest's contract to a regular deal soon and either give him the 15th roster spot or cut Oni and give him his spot. I'd much prefer to cut Oni and leave the last roster spot open in case a buyout guy comes along that we want to sign.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Haven't been a believer in Forrest, but to his credit he's been more aggressive on offense and his lineups are booming. That's the most important thing for this role...that the lineups aren't messed up. It's why I was a fan of Oni's performance last year and that extends to Forrest as of late.

I still don't love the idea of our offense being at the mercy of Trent Forrest's on ball game even if it's the best way to play with him. I much prefer these fill in players to be able to stay out of the way, but if it works it works.

How many games can two way guys play in? Isn't it just around 50? We're going to have to convert Forrest's contract to a regular deal soon and either give him the 15th roster spot or cut Oni and give him his spot. I'd much prefer to cut Oni and leave the last roster spot open in case a buyout guy comes along that we want to sign.

My issue with Forrest/Oni is as follows:

- He's fine... are we going to rely on him in the playoffs.
- If we are developing a guy why not have it be Butler who just has so much more upside.
- If we are valuing a defensive stopper or "win-now" value... why not cut Oni and sign Dunn or Galloway. Both guys would likely out perform Forrest and we are much more likely to rely on one of these guys in the playoffs if we had to.

If Dunn is currently healthy it is malpractice that we have not signed him. Yes I am getting @infection fired up. Go ahead and look at what Gary Payton is doing with deflections and the Warriors defense. Dunn is the same disruptive defender and can do exactly what Forrest is doing on offense. I get that the GM gets some sort of bonus points for a guy that develops in house but a minimum deal is a minimum deal. Having a healthy Dunn makes it much more likely you'd feel good resting Mike.

If we are thrilled with Forrest and Dunn isn't healthy then go on ahead and continue down this path... but cut Oni and sign a Darius Miller or Langston Galloway... two guys that can actually shoot. They may be waiting to see if something better comes up and that is fine but it does take a little time to integrate vets too.

 

[KqWIN]

My issue with Forrest/Oni is as follows:

- He's fine... are we going to rely on him in the playoffs.
- If we are developing a guy why not have it be Butler who just has so much more upside.
- If we are valuing a defensive stopper or "win-now" value... why not cut Oni and sign Dunn or Galloway. Both guys would likely out perform Forrest and we are much more likely to rely on one of these guys in the playoffs if we had to.

If Dunn is currently healthy it is malpractice that we have not signed him. Yes I am getting @infection fired up. Go ahead and look at what Gary Payton is doing with deflections and the Warriors defense. Dunn is the same disruptive defender and can do exactly what Forrest is doing on offense. I get that the GM gets some sort of bonus points for a guy that develops in house but a minimum deal is a minimum deal. Having a healthy Dunn makes it much more likely you'd feel good resting Mike.

If we are thrilled with Forrest and Dunn isn't healthy then go on ahead and continue down this path... but cut Oni and sign a Darius Miller or Langston Galloway... two guys that can actually shoot. They may be waiting to see if something better comes up and that is fine but it does take a little time to integrate vets too.

I'm not against picking up a vet or even a different nobody, Dunn just isn't the vet I would go after. The reports on his health did not look good and whenever there's a vet that can't find a team, I think there's probably a reason why 30 teams said no to that guy. I know that became a huge thing with Shaq, but I do put that under consideration when there are "known" commodities.

Generally I think 11-14 should be used on lottery tickets and development pieces. Even though they are developing player, the chances of them helping a team versus a vet off the street doesn't seem that different. The risk of cutting Oni for Dunn, for example, is that Oni is actually better than Dunn. Maybe I'm completely wrong on this, but I can't really think of any vets that have actually been picked off the street who have helped a team. I'm talking about someone like Ersan, not a buy out guy. Maybe Melo with POR?

Either way, rarely is there a non-rotation player that can actually help you in the playoffs, otherwise they wouldn't be a non-rotation player. Like I said, I wouldn't necessarily mind using one of those spots on a vet but I don't think that's a real solution. We won't win or lose a championship on spots 11-14. If we're serious about addressing our issues, you need to do that in a more substantial way. The idea of throwing a guy in for a few minutes and he changes everything is cute, but not a sustainable way to win. Subbing in a worse player to shock the system or whatever just isn't a tactic I believe in.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I'm not against picking up a vet or even a different nobody, Dunn just isn't the vet I would go after. The reports on his health did not look good and whenever there's a vet that can't find a team, I think there's probably a reason why 30 teams said no to that guy. I know that became a huge thing with Shaq, but I do put that under consideration when there are "known" commodities.

Generally I think 11-14 should be used on lottery tickets and development pieces. Even though they are developing player, the chances of them helping a team versus a vet off the street doesn't seem that different. The risk of cutting Oni for Dunn, for example, is that Oni is actually better than Dunn. Maybe I'm completely wrong on this, but I can't really think of any vets that have actually been picked off the street who have helped a team. I'm talking about someone like Ersan, not a buy out guy. Maybe Melo with POR?

Either way, rarely is there a non-rotation player that can actually help you in the playoffs, otherwise they wouldn't be a non-rotation player. Like I said, I wouldn't necessarily mind using one of those spots on a vet but I don't think that's a real solution. We won't win or lose a championship on spots 11-14. If we're serious about addressing our issues, you need to do that in a more substantial way. The idea of throwing a guy in for a few minutes and he changes everything is cute, but not a sustainable way to win. Subbing in a worse player to shock the system or whatever just isn't a tactic I believe in.

Cousins gave the Clips a minor boost in the series with us... they figured out small ball was better but that was a minor addition. Denver got a lot of quality time from Rivers last year. Its the same logic folks use to say buy out guys don't matter. They have helped teams win in the past and may not have been the reason they won... but they helped.

I'm cool with 11-14 being for projects too... I just think a guy who hasn't shown any meaningful improvement in a 3 year span and is on an expiring deal is not really the best use of that spot. I think Hughes is better on both ends of the floor than Oni and I'd rather get a guy on a minimum with a non-guaranteed year next year in case they pop. Dok and Oni have such a minor chance of being something and if we had to rely on them I'm sure we'd go dumpster diving instead. Get the guy now, or at some point this season, just in case a need arrives.

 

[kabenac]

My issue with Forrest/Oni is as follows:

- He's fine... are we going to rely on him in the playoffs.
- If we are developing a guy why not have it be Butler who just has so much more upside.
- If we are valuing a defensive stopper or "win-now" value... why not cut Oni and sign Dunn or Galloway. Both guys would likely out perform Forrest and we are much more likely to rely on one of these guys in the playoffs if we had to.

If Dunn is currently healthy it is malpractice that we have not signed him. Yes I am getting @infection fired up. Go ahead and look at what Gary Payton is doing with deflections and the Warriors defense. Dunn is the same disruptive defender and can do exactly what Forrest is doing on offense. I get that the GM gets some sort of bonus points for a guy that develops in house but a minimum deal is a minimum deal. Having a healthy Dunn makes it much more likely you'd feel good resting Mike.

If we are thrilled with Forrest and Dunn isn't healthy then go on ahead and continue down this path... but cut Oni and sign a Darius Miller or Langston Galloway... two guys that can actually shoot. They may be waiting to see if something better comes up and that is fine but it does take a little time to integrate vets too.

I'm a huge Forrest homer. He's finally looking composed out there. He knows his role and what he's good at; he knows how to stay on the floor. His biggest knock is he can't shoot the three; if he improves his shot it'll be interesting as he definitely has good shot selection.

If Dunn can still defend (he's sill young so I'm assuming he can) I wouldn't be opposed to signing him though it'll be interesting to see who pops up on the waiver wire near the trade deadline.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

A guy like Galloway could also likely be had on a 1+1 deal and while you may only need him in spot duty this year you get the option of keeping him for next year when you may need cheap production because Ingles is gone or JC was traded. Or you give Oni's guaranteed spot to Forrest or Fitts and go sign another two way guy and see if you can find some gold.