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Game Thread Oct 26, 2021 08:00PM MT: Jazz vs. Nuggets

Added to Calendar: 10-26-21

Agreed. About as pessimistic of a gamethread for a game that we won as i have seen in long time


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I know it - and get used to it.

I told everyone last year during the regular season to enjoy it while it lasts. It's very, very rare your team exceeds everyone's expectations - especially if your team is good to begin with. No one serious had The Jazz finishing with best overall record.

Now folks are gonna expect it - so the joy associated with winning become less and less.
 
I was actually thinking about this last night. I know it would be an unpopular opinion, but I do think a lot of Gay minutes should come from Royce. Gay can obviously siphon minutes from Joe, Royce and Bojan, but I think the idea that he could take some Royce minutes probably isn't thought about much. I struggle with Royce not because of his pros/limitations, but because I believe that the dose is just too high, or that we're expecting/relying on him for things we shouldn't be. This has been a challenging discussion because it tends to be fairly polarized in terms of peoples' view on it. I think he's an important part of the team and rotation but I think we can correct the ways in which he's being overutilized. Overall his strengths are that he's an a-bit-above-average defender, he plays hard and makes hustle plays, and he hits open threes at a good clip. The fact that he's low usage has a lot of positive considering who he's playing with that, in some ways, makes him fit in reasonably in those situations. On the other hand, I believe there are some pretty important things to look at when we're comparing Gay vs. Royce in some of those minutes. Superficially, Gay would be considered a lesser three point shooter and less of a spacer. But Royce is only shooting when he's open (26.1% of shots are considered open or defender within 4-6 feet, and 63.2% of his shots are considered wide open at 6+ feet from the next defender -- 89.3% of all his shots are either open or wide open). This is looking at last year but...

Wide open threes:
Royce 39.8% and 63.2% of his threes were wide open.
Gay 39.1% and 17.5% of his threes were wide open.

Open threes:
Royce 26.1% and 5.8% of his threes were open.
Gay 39% and 21.7% of his threes were open.

The bottom line is that Royce is left wide open for threes, and those are generally the ones he takes. That's neither good nor bad in a vacuum as the defense is having to pick their poison on leaving Royce open to hit a high percentage shot or give attention elsewhere on the floor. But would our view of Gay be skewed because we look at his total percentage? What would it look like if Gay is surrounded by the same guys Royce is surrounded by and he's getting those wide open looks? More specifically, the answer is probably that Gay draws a bit more defensive attention and doesn't get as many open and wide open threes. So what that translates to is that Royce is getting open and wide open shots because the defense is crammed elsewhere. Royce shoots a higher percentage so we view him more as a spacer, but in reality he's not spacing things the way we think because he's getting those open looks. He's the opposite end of it where he's capitalizing on the space created from others (but facilitated by sagging off of him). In theory Gay would draw more attention and probably get up less open and wide open threes because the defense has to be a bit more honest, and the trade off is that the floor opens (and actually spaces) for others. Not to mention that Gay has a lot more tools to punish the defense, even while having lower usage in those lineups. Though Royce always tends to shoot a good percentage in the amalgam, there are times where the moment is big and he becomes a reluctant shooter or the nerves get the best of him.

Now pivoting to the defensive end, what does that look like? This is one area I believe people would get squeamish. We've always defaulted Royce as the man-to-man defender, even when there are numerous scenarios when that doesn't matter or becomes irrelevant (smaller quick guards, lengthy wings). Royce struggles to stay in front of anyone. Royce is good to great at a lot of things, but it's fair to say he struggles with his lateral quickness staying in front of guys (this is true of everyone else, too, but we can't ignore it here because we're having to justify his presence based on defensive acumen). Gay will be a longer defender. I don't know what his lateral quickness will look like this year, but he should be a guy who's a good team defender and can make the right rotations. He's a good secondary rim defender and rebounder when Rudy goes out to challenge (and that's one of the biggest holes in our defensive strategy right behind guys on the perimeter not staying in front of their man). If Rudy goes out to contest, the lane is open for lobs or offensive rebounds and we consistently get killed in these situations. Gay does give true size at the 4. My belief is that the biggest barriers we may have to face in a potential drop off from Royce to Gay may be our psychological perception of it. There may actually be enough other positives that would tilt the scale in Gay's favor.

tl;dr I believe that Gay may bring a number of things to the table offensively in a lower-usage role in the main unit that we may be neglecting and I believe he brings unique abilities on the defensive end when we're comparing it against those same units but with Royce. This isn't about Gay vs. Royce. Both guys can get theirs. The question and assumption is already out there about Gay possibly closing some games in place of Bojan, depending on the situation. But I don't think that discussion has been had in relation to the same idea with Royce, and I believe having that discussion would make many psychologically uneasy, but I do believe there are a few minutes to spare there where Gay is inserted into the Royce role with reasonably good success, and it should be explored without having to drastically change anyone's identities.
This is a whole lot of words, and seems like you're trying to convince yourself. Gay for Royce probably works fine, but Royce is far from our problems that need to be solved.

Royce fits in well with any of our lineups because of his ability to defend multiple positions, rebound, and play efficient offense with very limited usage.
 
I don't think Rudy Gay shifting down to a low usage role will necessarily be bad for him (he was a bad high usage guy last year), but I reject the notion that it's not actually a dramatic change for him.. It could be the change that keeps his career going, but it's still a huge change for him nonetheless. Rudy Gay was the second highest usage guy on the Spurs last year. They depended on him to get his own shot and that's a role he's had his entire career. It's way different to play the Royce O'Neale role on offense where you're a <10% usage player who never touches the ball. I understand the thought. Gay is better than Royce at everything that Royce does on offense, but it doesn't always work that way in practice. Gay is still going to play his game to some degree. That's not because he's selfish, it's just the way he plays. It doesn't mesh well the other players who will be in that main lineup. Even when we had Ingles playing instead of Royce, who doesn't shoot a lot, those lineups didn't work well because there was an overload of ball handlers.

I think the offense would sort itself out, the bigger question is on defense. I don't think you're too far off in your analysis. I've been championing the idea that on ball defense is highly overrated for since forever. No one can really stay in front of anyone to begin with, and if you are the best defender teams will just work to get their preferred switch anyways. Perimeter defense matters, but your worse defender will picked on. Not the best. Unfortunately for the Jazz everyone except for Rudy is very easily picked on by an above average offensive player. At the end of the day defenses succeed or fail in the playoffs on how they play as a unit --help, recover, cover space, rebound ect. All that good stuff.

In theory that's where Gay can help us. I wouldn't say I'm super skeptical of his defensive ability, but I'm not at a point where I can comfortably assume he's really going to help us there. He's 35 and if you listen at the general consensus from Spurs fans he wasn't a good defender. To be fair, his defensive contributions come in a more subtle way and his shortcomings are the most visible (on ball defense). It wouldn't surprise me if most people underrated him defensively for those reason, but I also think we underrate Royce for these reasons. Royce does guard the toughest assignment, but I think the bulk of his defensive value comes in other ways. The numbers would suggest that Gay is as good as ever on defense...but if we put a lot of stock in those types of numbers (which I do) Bogey sticks out like a sore thumb. Bogey is the player whose numbers do not reflect the reputation he has.

For me, I see it just as much of a Royce vs Bogey debate as a Royce vs Gay debate. If Gay proves to be a really solid and valuable defender for us, what do we need more....scoring/shooting or defense/rebounding? To me that answer is still more defense/rebounding. If Gay is an equal or even more valuable defender than Royce I think we're still getting absolutely cooked on defense. I can't envision a scenario where Gay is so much better than Royce that we get away with Conley-Mitchelll-Bogey defensive trio. I think it's fair to question how much value Royce is actually bringing and how that compares to Gay, but I also ask the same questions about Bogey. When he's playing with Mike and Donovan, he's just an average usage player. There isn't room for him to be more than that. In the playoffs where Mitchell takes over, Bogey is even less than that. He's an 18% usage player in the playoffs when sharing the court with Mitchell.

Now, you could make the argument that we should be getting Bogey involved more and Mitchell shouldn't have to do so much in the playoffs...but Mitchell does his thing and it really works. I also don't think Bogey is particularly great against switches. I still cringe when he gets a postup and in the playoffs when defense is more aggressively concerns about him giving the ball away are even greater. This isn't to say he doesn't provide value. He is a great shooter and replacing him with Royce or Gay will have his downsides. But having him on defense instead of those two also presents major downsides.
I would respond to this with two things in stating that we're not talking about a large sum of minutes here, and Gay having to transition to a different role isn't meaning that he's now playing 15 minutes a night with the main unit. I'm talking more about maybe 5 minutes a night as a ceiling, if that. The second is on the question of the defensive issues. I believe the largest difference you would have would come down to how we could close defensive possessions in crunch time. We've been one of the worse rebounding teams in the crunch and the whole idea of Gay is that you have someone can can rotate down low when Rudy contests. Between him being a bigger body to protect the rim and being able to better secure rebounds like a forward, this would go a long way in correcting a gigantic flaw in our system that tends to only manifest in the clutch and is virtually absent the rest of the game and does not show up in any composite numbers. The second part of it goes back to the offensive end where our struggles tend to get contagious and when other teams are going on a run we tighten up. I don't see Royce hitting shots in those scenarios, and feel like Gay's versatility gives us a few more tools to combat that, even if he's not the guy you're throwing the ball to.
 
This is a whole lot of words, and seems like you're trying to convince yourself. Gay for Royce probably works fine, but Royce is far from our problems that need to be solved.

Royce fits in well with any of our lineups because of his ability to defend multiple positions, rebound, and play efficient offense with very limited usage.
It's not an argument for that scenario by itself, but more that I believe we're likely to limit ourselves because we will focus in on one or two problems and won't be open to additional ones because of the explanation given in your last sentence.
 
Watching the game last night, I came to the conclusion that Butler, Dok and Hughes need some playing time with the Stars. Butler needs some confidence back. Dok and Hughes because they aren't very good at this level.
 
Watching the game last night, I came to the conclusion that Butler, Dok and Hughes need some playing time with the Stars. Butler needs some confidence back. Dok and Hughes because they aren't very good at this level.
We’re playing Houston tomorrow. Butler should get some burn.
 
I would respond to this with two things in stating that we're not talking about a large sum of minutes here, and Gay having to transition to a different role isn't meaning that he's now playing 15 minutes a night with the main unit. I'm talking more about maybe 5 minutes a night as a ceiling, if that. The second is on the question of the defensive issues. I believe the largest difference you would have would come down to how we could close defensive possessions in crunch time. We've been one of the worse rebounding teams in the crunch and the whole idea of Gay is that you have someone can can rotate down low when Rudy contests. Between him being a bigger body to protect the rim and being able to better secure rebounds like a forward, this would go a long way in correcting a gigantic flaw in our system that tends to only manifest in the clutch and is virtually absent the rest of the game and does not show up in any composite numbers. The second part of it goes back to the offensive end where our struggles tend to get contagious and when other teams are going on a run we tighten up. I don't see Royce hitting shots in those scenarios, and feel like Gay's versatility gives us a few more tools to combat that, even if he's not the guy you're throwing the ball to.

Whether Gay is playing in the starting lineup or not, that role is going to have to shift or someone else on the team has to shift. Paschall is playing 0 minutes in the main lineup and he's at 9% usage. That's the bulk of where Gay's minutes would theoretically come from. Whatever lineup Gay plays in there's going to be excess usage because that's how this team was built. Almost every player in the rotation wants to shoot or handle the ball a lot.

I don't disagree with how Gay can help us, but if you're replacing Royce with Gay I don't there is that much to gain in terms of the big man stuff. If we struggle with Royce, we're still going to struggle mightily if you replace him with Gay. Even if he's better at the secondary big man stuff, it comes at the cost of having a significantly worse primary defender (who is even our primary defender...it's not Bogey). If you switch out Bogey for Gay....now that is a significant difference where you're going from a complete zero/negative to something positive.

I just don't have much concern about the offense because it has been consistently elite even when we're missing someone. Every team goes on offensive runs and droughts, it's just part of the game. Sure, there are some rough patches, but when we have an elite offense and historically awful defense I tend to put more weight on the latter issue. Gay can score in difficult situations, which is nice and could come in handy....but he's also not very good at it these days. When we're in a tough scoring drought, I don't think the problem is that we don't have Rudy Gay or that Royce isn't getting that tough bucket for us. We're in a scoring drought because our best players missed a couple shots in a row or our shooters can't hit. It's not that we don't have enough talent, we're just not performing. If it was a talent issue, which is very much a part of the problem on defense, we wouldn't be able to maintain an elite level offense.
 
Watching the game last night, I came to the conclusion that Butler, Dok and Hughes need some playing time with the Stars. Butler needs some confidence back. Dok and Hughes because they aren't very good at this level.
Butler just needs one shot to fall and all the pressure will fall off his shoulders. I’d consider resting Mike or Joe versus Houston and getting Forrest and Butler some run. Not a back to back… it’s early in the season… but reducing the games played is still important. Schedule gets harder after Thursday so get some rest before a small gauntlet.

Butler is playing in such short stints it’s really hard to figure anything out. It’s good he’s preparing for games and getting some time. Getting two 8 minute stints would help him actually feel comfortable out there. I don’t want him in the g league… keep him around the vets and figure out how to contribute with other great players around you.
 
I would respond to this with two things in stating that we're not talking about a large sum of minutes here, and Gay having to transition to a different role isn't meaning that he's now playing 15 minutes a night with the main unit. I'm talking more about maybe 5 minutes a night as a ceiling, if that. The second is on the question of the defensive issues. I believe the largest difference you would have would come down to how we could close defensive possessions in crunch time. We've been one of the worse rebounding teams in the crunch and the whole idea of Gay is that you have someone can can rotate down low when Rudy contests. Between him being a bigger body to protect the rim and being able to better secure rebounds like a forward, this would go a long way in correcting a gigantic flaw in our system that tends to only manifest in the clutch and is virtually absent the rest of the game and does not show up in any composite numbers. The second part of it goes back to the offensive end where our struggles tend to get contagious and when other teams are going on a run we tighten up. I don't see Royce hitting shots in those scenarios, and feel like Gay's versatility gives us a few more tools to combat that, even if he's not the guy you're throwing the ball to.
From memory Royce hit some nice clutch shots last year, I would guess his clutch shooting was pretty good. If rebounding is the issue it seems like Royce + Gay would be better than either by themselves.

Personally I don't think it is too big of a deal either way. I prefer Royce + Gay vs Bogey + Gay. Neither might be upgrades over Bogey + Royce, but I'm excited to see how Gay could fit in. I wish we had a better timeline for his recovery.
 
Conley-Mitchell-O'Neale-Gay-Gobert actually has the makings of a good defensive lineup. Having Gay and O'Neale provides a lot of coverage and guarantees that you at least have one player besides Gobert with some life playing off the ball in a help position. I think we'd still be able to score at an elite level too if Gay's shooting keeps up. His 3 point shooting volume and accuracy was very similar to Bogey last year.
 
Realistically we kind of got lucky that their team was heavily depleted because we did not deserve this win. We played like crap for 2.5 quarters at least. And mediocre for another quarter. So for 1/2 of a quarter we played solid ball, and since they were short their 2 best players they couldn't overcome it. But if they had been at full strength we did not play well enough to win. I hate games like this, hard to enjoy the win with multiple asterisks.
I mean we were blow for blow with them while we were "sucking" and they were playing all world. Sucks for them that they have injuries, but I'm not going to cry for them. Nobody cries for us when we have injuries and we play an entire month without Donovan and Mike. Nobody here gets to blame injuries for us going out against the Clippers. The last few years we have played Denver on the backside of a back to back 6 out of 8 times. Depth is part of the game.

If you want to assign asterisks, that's you choice, but it is a hard way to go through life.
 
What is DM insurance anyways? If DM is out in the playoffs we have no chance anyways. That's not a situation we should think about too much because we're losing no matter what. It's nice to keep things going during the RS if he's out, but that's why we have Butler and all these other scorers on the team. We can ask Clarkson, Ingles, Gay, Paschall, Butler ect to pick up some scoring/ball handling responsibilities because that's who they are as players and we don't have enough touches/minutes for them in the first place. Meanwhile Royce is the only defensive non big on roster that we're sure is an NBA level player.

Bogey is a nice luxury but not one we can afford when we have massive needs that need to be addressed. If Bogey was playing for another team right now, I don't think any of us would be thinking that we need another scorer and that we should go out and get him.
DM insurance is what keeps us out of the play in games and allows us favorable seeding. We keep Butler because he isn't going to be close to starter level this year.

Trading Bojan for someone like Hart is just moronic. Bojan made a difference for Indiana before we got him. If Hart were any good, he'd at least have made a marginal impact on any team he has played for before this point. I'd think twice before adding anyone from that underachieving train wreck of New Orleans at the price it would take to get them.
 
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