Official Sign DeAndre Jordan Thread (Note from Jazzfanz: Thread not official)

[GVC]

The Al Jefferson who averaged 18.6 pts., 9.7 rbs., 1.9 blks., and had the 6th highest PER among centers? That Al Jefferson? By the way, Jordan's PER was 26th among centers.

The Al Jefferson who had a pathetically low TS%, no clue about team offense or defense, saggy arms, an inability to run the floor or box out. The one with the pathetic raw and adjusted +/-. That one.

Al Jefferson is a perfect example why PER is worthless: Basketball is a team game.

 

[LogGrad98]

You use +/- to bash PER? Really?

 

[GVC]

You use +/- to bash PER? Really?

Did you read the rest of my post?

 

[NUMBERICA]

PER is one of my preferred metrics, but no one metric tells all. I generally have the opinion that if a PER and +/- tell the same story, you're getting just about the full story.

As it pertains to volume scorers, I use +/- to see if they're actually helping, or if they're ignoring/not capable of doing all of the other things necessary to win.

 

[My2Cents]

The Al Jefferson who had a pathetically low TS%, no clue about team offense or defense, saggy arms, an inability to run the floor or box out. The one with the pathetic raw and adjusted +/-. That one.

Al Jefferson is a perfect example why PER is worthless: Basketball is a team game.

So PER is worthless but the highest PERs in the league belong to James, Howard, Wade, Love, Bryant, Paul, Durant, Westbrook, Rose, Nowitzki, Gasol, Stoudemire, Randolph, Duncan, and Griffin. Maybe it’s not perfect but it seems to be a pretty good indicator of talent. And just as reliable as +/-. I'm not saying Jefferson doesn’t have holes in his game, I just think saying he isn't a credible big is retarded. You think Kaman is credible but Kaman’s TS% was 3 points lower than Jefferson. You know, I was thinking we should probably give Jefferson more than one year in the system before we run him out of town but you've convinced me. I don't want any player with saggy arms playing for the Jazz.

 

[Favors Flave]

1. Start spelling MilLsap right.
2. The only thing scary about having a 5-man big rotation is the prospect of winning anything.
3. Nothing is known about the nature of free agency. It's not known if there will be an MLE, how that is calculated if there will be, or what cap numbers will be. You can pretty much guarantee the Jazz will be over whatever the cap is set to, and the Clippers will definitely be able to match the cute offer Utah only MIGHT BE ABLE to offer.
4. Not ****ing happening.

Really, for all the freakin morons that spell people's last name with S's at the end: I've seen Morrows a ton and others like Jeffersons. Don't be a muff about missing an L for God sake

The Jazz may have a lot of $ to spend if they don't sign any of the Jazz free agents and get rid of Bell/Memo's contract. KOC has said he wants and needs a defensive C and its a possibility. But if you read I did say "I can dream right"

 

[akirac73]

I don't want any player with saggy arms playing for the Jazz.

There's a cure for that...

 

[vslice02]

What's with the Jefferson hate? Dude's a beast.

The Al Jefferson who had a pathetically low TS%, no clue about team offense or defense, saggy arms, an inability to run the floor or box out. The one with the pathetic raw and adjusted +/-. That one.
Al Jefferson is a perfect example why PER is worthless: Basketball is a team game.

Zach Randolph is also a perfect example why you don't just throw away legitimate low-post scorers who can get you 20 & 10. There's alot I think Al needs to improve for the Jazz to be a winning basketball team, but if Zach-freakin-Randolph can be the best player on a 2nd-round playoff team, there's still time for Al to learn how to pass, how to be a crunch-time scorer and how to play help defense.
I still consider Al as one of the major pieces the Jazz need to build around.

 

[NotDeadYet]

Kaman, being a vet, would be a better fit here. Smart, aggresive player, good rebounder. I like Jordan as a prospect, but we already are loaded with young guys, and will soon be adding 2 more via the draft...

 

[billyshelby]

PER is worthless, but TS% and adjusted +/- tell you everything you need to know about a player's total worth. No offense GVC, but you're a little smarter than this. All stats are tools to understand a player's performance. But if you're not watching the players night in and night out, you're missing at least half the picture. All stats have to be taken in context with what can be seen.

 

[Park Bites]

I don't want any player with saggy arms playing for the Jazz.

I guess my mom won't be playing for the jazz then.

 

[billyshelby]

Zach Randolph is also a perfect example why you don't just throw away legitimate low-post scorers who can get you 20 & 10. There's alot I think Al needs to improve for the Jazz to be a winning basketball team, but if Zach-freakin-Randolph can be the best player on a 2nd-round playoff team, there's still time for Al to learn how to pass, how to be a crunch-time scorer and how to play help defense.
I still consider Al as one of the major pieces the Jazz need to build around.

Randolph's adjusted +/- was always good even if his TS% wasn't. It doesn't matter that he played on far better teams than Al. GVC will point this out to you.

 

[GVC]

Most of my schtick is aimed to be a reaction to the "dump Millsap in favor of Big Al" crowd. The number of atrocious deals ridding the Jazz of Millsap posted on Jazzfanz is shocking, especially considering how excited everyone is to hold on to Big Al, despite his extreme inefficiency and lack of any discernible BBIQ. Could Big Al turn it around like Zach Randolph after 7 lackluster years in the NBA? Sure, but keep in mind that Zach Randolph's career is a HUGE exception to the rule.

Millsap has proven to be a much more efficient, smarter and tougher player than Big Al. He also happens to be paid no more than his market value, whereas (to date) Big Al is vastly overpaid.

As I said in the CJ Miles thread, I'm willing to see how Big Al and Paul do working together this offseason on changing their games, but as of now I'm much more inclined to dump Big Al than I am Paul Millsap.

 

[billyshelby]

Most of my schtick is aimed to be a reaction to the "dump Millsap in favor of Big Al" crowd. The number of atrocious deals ridding the Jazz of Millsap posted on Jazzfanz is shocking, especially considering how excited everyone is to hold on to Big Al, despite his extreme inefficiency and lack of any discernible BBIQ. Could Big Al turn it around like Zach Randolph after 7 lackluster years in the NBA? Sure, but keep in mind that Zach Randolph's career is a HUGE exception to the rule.

Millsap has proven to be a much more efficient, smarter and tougher player than Big Al. He also happens to be paid no more than his market value, whereas (to date) Big Al is vastly overpaid.

As I said in the CJ Miles thread, I'm willing to see how Big Al and Paul do working together this offseason on changing their games, but as of now I'm much more inclined to dump Big Al than I am Paul Millsap.

Fair enough. But no one is arguing that Al is elite or doesn't have plenty of areas he can improve. Yet your opinion of Al seems to be that he is, at best, a mediocre power forward. Like you think he's an overpaid Bass. The guy is incredibly skilled. His post game alone is actually elite. The rest of his game isn't. But that's something you work with, because most players can't get to his level in the post no matter how hard they try.

 

[NAOS]

Most of my schtick is aimed to be a reaction to the "dump Millsap in favor of Big Al" crowd. The number of atrocious deals ridding the Jazz of Millsap posted on Jazzfanz is shocking, especially considering how excited everyone is to hold on to Big Al, despite his extreme inefficiency and lack of any discernible BBIQ. Could Big Al turn it around like Zach Randolph after 7 lackluster years in the NBA? Sure, but keep in mind that Zach Randolph's career is a HUGE exception to the rule.

Millsap has proven to be a much more efficient, smarter and tougher player than Big Al. He also happens to be paid no more than his market value, whereas (to date) Big Al is vastly overpaid.

As I said in the CJ Miles thread, I'm willing to see how Big Al and Paul do working together this offseason on changing their games, but as of now I'm much more inclined to dump Big Al than I am Paul Millsap.

Fair enough. But no one is arguing that Al is elite or doesn't have plenty of areas he can improve. Yet your opinion of Al seems to be that he is, at best, a mediocre power forward. Like you think he's an overpaid Bass. The guy is incredibly skilled. His post game alone is actually elite. The rest of his game isn't. But that's something you work with, because most players can't get to his level in the post no matter how hard they try.

okay, now somebody should perform some fancy dialectical synthesis to these perspectives.

 

[GVC]

His post game alone is actually elite.

Only it's not. If it were, he'd be able to get to the line and/or shoot a better percentage. Why is this so hard to understand?

 

[NAOS]

Only it's not. If it were, he'd be able to get to the line and/or shoot a better percentage. Why is this so hard to understand?

I'm more in GVC's camp. And, I'd add that if he were 'elite' in the post, then he'd be better not only at drawing contact, but in using it regardless of whether his intent was to draw the foul or not. His passing got a little better at the end of the year; that is also a big part of an 'elite' post game... and he is far from spades in that facet.

In the end, I'd trade him over Millsap if one had to go. You don't come across closers of Millsap's ilk very often. And, his paycheck is much better.

 

[GVC]

I'll add that Big Al averages 0.89 points per possession on post ups (this includes free throws on these possessions).

Paul Millsap averages 1.05 points per possession on post ups (while also being a much better passer).

 

[GVC]

And, just for fun, here's a rundown of the PPP on post ups for qualified (according to NBA.com) NBA bigs (those who played the majority of their minutes at the 4 and 5 according to 82games.com) who averaged 15+ points per game this season:

A. Stoudemire (25.3 PPG): 1.08 PPP on post ups
D. Nowitzki (23.0): 1.13
D. Howard (22.9): 0.93
B. Griffin (22.5): 0.9
L. Aldridge (21.8): 0.87
A. Bargnani (21.4): 0.95
B. Lopez (20.4): 0.96
K. Love (20.2): 0.91
Z. Randolph (20.1): 0.9
D. West (18.9): 0.94
P. Gasol (18.8): 0.91
A. Jefferson (18.6): 0.89
C. Bosh (18.7): 0.85
L. Scola (18.3): 0.86
P. Millsap (17.3): 1.05
J. Smith (16.5): 0.78
D. Lee (16.5): 0.78
A. Horford (15.3): 0.85
E. Brand (15.0): 0.98

That makes Big Al 13th of 19 on this list. Far from elite.

 

[NAOS]

And, just for fun, here's a rundown of the PPP on post ups for qualified (according to NBA.com) NBA bigs (those who played the majority of their minutes at the 4 and 5 according to 82games.com) who averaged 15+ points per game this season:

A. Stoudemire (25.3 PPG): 1.08 PPP on post ups
D. Nowitzki (23.0): 1.13
D. Howard (22.9): 0.93
B. Griffin (22.5): 0.9
L. Aldridge (21.8): 0.87
A. Bargnani (21.4): 0.95
B. Lopez (20.4): 0.96
K. Love (20.2): 0.91
Z. Randolph (20.1): 0.9
D. West (18.9): 0.94
P. Gasol (18.8): 0.91
A. Jefferson (18.6): 0.89
C. Bosh (18.7): 0.85
L. Scola (18.3): 0.86
P. Millsap (17.3): 1.05
J. Smith (16.5): 0.78
D. Lee (16.5): 0.78
A. Horford (15.3): 0.85
E. Brand (15.0): 0.98

That makes Big Al 13th of 19 on this list. Far from elite.

a small addition:
Al Jefferson attempted 16 shots/game last season
Paul Millsap attempted 13 shots/game last season

doesn't say anything about post-ups specifically, but it does say a little about their minor scoring difference...... especially when you consider how much more work goes into getting Al the ball where he wants it.