Okay, I'm stupid and stuff...

[gandalfe]

Oh I know that there are consequences.

Maybe you didn't really keep up on my journey, but I used to work swings, from 2pm to 10:30pm, M-F. When I found out they were going to go back to 12hr shifts I quit and went somewhere else to avoid going to nights. I stayed at the other job for 6 months, wasn't working out, I asked to come back. Since then I've been on nights and it has been hard and I know it isn't good for me.

I worry about going somewhere else right now because I don't want to look like I'm bouncing from job to job. But after I've been here a year since coming back I'm going to start looking.

Living in the PNW as I do, I seriously suggest you get yourself some vitamin D. One of the things you miss being on a graveyard shift is sunlight, which causes your body to convert cholesterol to vitamin D. That's also what happens to people up here in Oregon and Washington.

 

[Keefe]

Like I said...

And I say that cause I love you brotha.

 

[infection]

I propose we fix two problems with the same solution:

Every time Cy wakes up from a night sweat, he needs to log on and verify it with GF. This way GF can keep an accurate measure of night sweats, and Cy can check in in real time to gauge whether or not GF is being reasonable. We can call it the night-watch brotherhood. Our Australian fans can mediate.

 

[Gameface]

Sure, it may not have gotten to the level of other threads but when someone is complaining and calling me out on ****, I'm going to look deeper at where his complaints may start and that one was pretty obvious.

Kind of past the point, but somehow I missed this response.

I'm sorry that I quoted your post, thus triggering a notification, I don't want to seem to be demanding your attention to this post.

So with that disclaimer...

This site is riddled with trolls. There are posters here who have been posting for years, some for 10 years or more, who have recently devolved into trolls.

I don't want anyone banned (except Dutch, I stand by that one) and I don't want to silence any specific opinions. My credibility may be lacking at present, but I can only say what I believe and that is that I don't want to narrow the discussion on jazzfanz.

But there is behavior that is easy to identify, easy to define, relatively easy to manage. It is generally referred to as trolling, which I guess I could check again, but I believe is against this forum's rules. I think colton is a well trusted unbiased poster who is probably best suited to identify who is engaging in trolling behavior.

I think it's important to say that all posters who might sometimes "troll" are not simply "trolls." And in keeping with the spirit of jazzfanz moderation standards I think it would be fair to simply warn posters here and there when they venture into trolling territory.

Some posters are currently engaged in trolling type activity more than 90% of the time they post. It would be super awesome for this community it they could be convinced to reduce that to no less than half of their posts.

This trolling behavior was not specifically high in the thread "The Honesty of Transgender Identity" imho. I read some posts from people I have on ignore and I responded to them the day of or day before I made my post about trolling on jazzfanz. I can see why that connection was made, sort of.

I hate that I have posters on ignore. I don't want to limit my exposure to various perspectives. I have gone from lots of posters on ignore, to deciding to just see it all, to giving up and putting a few back on ignore. I think I might have 5 posters on ignore at the moment. Yet with as few as five posters on ignore I read thread after thread where I get contextless responses that are pretty similar "Dude, read the responses to this question that have been given over and over and over." and variations of that response. I can literally go pages and pages in a thread reading nothing but that sort of response.

There is a problem. There are people who are devoting their time here to making this a poor place to have a conversation with what seems like the only goal being to make this site a poor place to have a conversation.

I spend a lot of time on jazzfanz and it has become frustrating. For me the solution is not to simply walk away. I feel like I have participated in a mostly positive way for more than 10 years and have tried to contribute to this community. I'm sorry that my recent contributions have had the opposite effect.

 

[NAOS]

Kind of past the point, but somehow I missed this response.

I'm sorry that I quoted your post, thus triggering a notification, I don't want to seem to be demanding your attention to this post.

So with that disclaimer...

This site is riddled with trolls. There are posters here who have been posting for years, some for 10 years or more, who have recently devolved into trolls.

I don't want anyone banned (except Dutch, I stand by that one) and I don't want to silence any specific opinions. My credibility may be lacking at present, but I can only say what I believe and that is that I don't want to narrow the discussion on jazzfanz.

But there is behavior that is easy to identify, easy to define, relatively easy to manage. It is generally referred to as trolling, which I guess I could check again, but I believe is against this forum's rules. I think colton is a well trusted unbiased poster who is probably best suited to identify who is engaging in trolling behavior.

I think it's important to say that all posters who might sometimes "troll" are not simply "trolls." And in keeping with the spirit of jazzfanz moderation standards I think it would be fair to simply warn posters here and there when they venture into trolling territory.

Some posters are currently engaged in trolling type activity more than 90% of the time they post. It would be super awesome for this community it they could be convinced to reduce that to no less than half of their posts.

This trolling behavior was not specifically high in the thread "The Honesty of Transgender Identity" imho. I read some posts from people I have on ignore and I responded to them the day of or day before I made my post about trolling on jazzfanz. I can see why that connection was made, sort of.

I hate that I have posters on ignore. I don't want to limit my exposure to various perspectives. I have gone from lots of posters on ignore, to deciding to just see it all, to giving up and putting a few back on ignore. I think I might have 5 posters on ignore at the moment. Yet with as few as five posters on ignore I read thread after thread where I get contextless responses that are pretty similar "Dude, read the responses to this question that have been given over and over and over." and variations of that response. I can literally go pages and pages in a thread reading nothing but that sort of response.

There is a problem. There are people who are devoting their time here to making this a poor place to have a conversation with what seems like the only goal being to make this site a poor place to have a conversation.

I spend a lot of time on jazzfanz and it has become frustrating. For me the solution is not to simply walk away. I feel like I have participated in a mostly positive way for more than 10 years and have tried to contribute to this community. I'm sorry that my recent contributions have had the opposite effect.

The ignore feature is ****ing awesome. I use it liberally

 

[LogGrad98]

I have the few I felt were incorrigible trolls or attacked me personally on ignore. I think it's 3 people. I see no issues with that.

I also agree to a point that trolling behavior is a problem from time to time. To be fair to the moderators we need to help police the forum and report trolling behavior when we see it.

I would recommend to the moderators that when you determine trolling is being engaged in maybe a quick hand-slap would be stronger than the standard warning cycle. Like an instant 3-day ban or something for a first offense. But it would have to be pretty cut-and-dried trolling activity, not just the occasional smart-*** exchange or dumb-*** response, otherwise @Rubashov would be gone in a heartbeat.

 

[Gameface]

I have the few I felt were incorrigible trolls or attacked me personally on ignore. I think it's 3 people. I see no issues with that.

I also agree to a point that trolling behavior is a problem from time to time. To be fair to the moderators we need to help police the forum and report trolling behavior when we see it.

I would recommend to the moderators that when you determine trolling is being engaged in maybe a quick hand-slap would be stronger than the standard warning cycle. Like an instant 3-day ban or something for a first offense. But it would have to be pretty cut-and-dried trolling activity, not just the occasional smart-*** exchange or dumb-*** response, otherwise @Rubashov would be gone in a heartbeat.

What makes this difficult is when you think someone is mostly a troll and put them on ignore you're not going to see their posts in order to Repot them. And the policy shift on jazzfanz seems to be that if you don't like what people post put them on ignore. As if that's problem solved.

I'm not kidding when I say I can go pages in a thread reading responses telling a person to just read the responses they've already gotten with the occasional vain attempt to explain it again where I have no idea what the topic even is or who they are talking to. Not a single reasonable poster is making a counter argument for me to see.

 

[NAOS]

This site will always be on the INTERNET. It’s, therefore, silly to apply some kind of general standard of “community” or some ish. For example, do we get mad at cameras when they don’t convey what it’s like to actually be around someone? No, we recognize that’s a major achievement of a camera operator when that happens. With the internet, we’ll never just be hanging out with real people; there will always be operators who use this space as an experiment or dumping ground for how to disrupt communication; the standards and problems are different here—and it’s essentially human nature that some of us are exploring the edges of these standards and problems even if that means their “humanity” suffers (or maybe especially if their humans suffers).

In other words, use ignore because these problems aren’t going away before cameras become real people.

 

[NAOS]

try to pick winnable battles.

 

[LogGrad98]

What makes this difficult is when you think someone is mostly a troll and put them on ignore you're not going to see their posts in order to Repot them. And the policy shift on jazzfanz seems to be that if you don't like what people post put them on ignore. As if that's problem solved.

I'm not kidding when I say I can go pages in a thread reading responses telling a person to just read the responses they've already gotten with the occasional vain attempt to explain it again where I have no idea what the topic even is or who they are talking to. Not a single reasonable poster is making a counter argument for me to see.

Before I put someone on ignore I've usually reported a good half-dozen or more posts, and identified, at least from my perspective that:

1) this person is not going to stop engaging in the behavior and...

2) I simply cannot or will not tolerate it anymore, usually when it gets personal or directed at me or someone else specifically instead if general trolling, and...

3) it doesn't bother anyone else enough for them to report it or for the mods to take stronger action

Only when it fits those 3 criteria do I put someone on ignore. And even those I have on ignore I still read from time to time depending on the thread.

But that way I'm not just ignoring everyone that might be going through a dick-ish phase, which can be, and really has been, pretty much everyone on JF from time to time.

 

[LogGrad98]

This site will always be on the INTERNET. It’s, therefore, silly to apply some kind of general standard of “community” or some ish. For example, do we get mad at cameras when they don’t convey what it’s like to actually be around someone? No, we recognize that’s a major achievement of a camera operator when that happens. With the internet, we’ll never just be hanging out with real people; there will always be operators who use this space as an experiment or dumping ground for how to disrupt communication; the standards and problems are different here—and it’s essentially human nature that some of us are exploring the edges of these standards and problems even if that means their “humanity” suffers (or maybe especially if their humans suffers).

In other words, use ignore because these problems aren’t going away before cameras become real people.

While I generally agree with this sentiment, I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to create, and I think the moderators here have done a pretty good job of creating, a community space where we can feel like we belong to something, and feel like we have some semblance of safety and acceptance. That is a tall order on the internet, granted, but I don't think it's an impossible standard. We just all have to agree on the common behaviors and standards we want to uphold, and then we have to try the best that we can, to help moderate the site in that direction. It'll never be perfect, but it can be, and generally has been, a pretty good space around here.

 

[NAOS]

While I generally agree with this sentiment, I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to create, and I think the moderators here have done a pretty good job of creating, a community space where we can feel like we belong to something, and feel like we have some semblance of safety and acceptance. That is a tall order on the internet, granted, but I don't think it's an impossible standard. We just all have to agree on the common behaviors and standards we want to uphold, and then we have to try the best that we can, to help moderate the site in that direction. It'll never be perfect, but it can be, and generally has been, a pretty good space around here.

For sure. But I think sanity dictates that you should always assume the other element will exist—even if it’s just on the margins. If moderators were to go whole hog in their efforts to keep it out, the place would be stifled in even worse ways.

It sounds like Gameface would be better off if he ignored somewhere between 5-10 posters. That’s such an incredibly small deal. So small.

 

[NAOS]

I used to rage against trolls on JFC. But when they made hotttnickkk a moderator I realized I had been fighting a dumb, losing struggle.

 

[Archie Moses]

When I first responded to in this thread, I was unaware of which thread GF was talking about. When I realized and I saw that the other trans thread was closed, I gotta say, I'm on GF's side all day long on this one.

I'm kind of surprised that so many people are telling GF to leave it be or crack jokes about this being another out there post from him. To be fair, yeah, GF has made some weird posts but I don't read into them too much. I either think the dude is drinking or just having one of those days or is just taking a strong take to ruffle some feathers. I'd hate to compare him to me (for his sake) but I relate to him. Lord knows I have my days where I'm on one on here, or have some liquor in me or emotions tied to the topic at hand. It's weird because I'm a pretty chill and laid back person irl. Dat online persona doe.

That said, if one were to put themselves in GF's shoes, they'd clearly understand how deeply he's involved in this topic. They'd understand that the dude has a trans daughter, went through the learning, loving, adapting process to be a better dad and to support her and her community. So while people may think he needs to give it a rest, leave it be, it's easy for you to say. Like @Wes Mantooth told me, it's a lil tone-deaf. GF is emotionally involved in this topic for good reason and I'm sure some posts either anger or hurt him.

The last I remember of what was being posted in the trans thread was NPC arguing something I don't think GF (unless I'm missing something) never argued and was rubbing it in his face while being a dick about it. He was basically saying trans shouldn't be able to participate in sports after transitioning. I don't think GF ever argued that and I know in the past, he's had very reasonable responses to my stance on the topic.

The exchange basically read like this to me:

NPC: trans shouldn't play sports after transitioning *insert ******* comment and person attack on GF and say he's wrong and delusional.*
GF: *insert emotional reaction*
NPC: *insert another dickish comment and jab*
Wash, rinse, repeat.

The thing is, if you read the comments, I believe there could be some common ground found if posters took the time to either mediate or get the conversation focused on a discussion that while there may differences of opinions, there could be some positives and understanding that come from it.

That's why closing the thread and the discussion is the most disappointing thing to me. There was opportunity for growth and education and sharing why one feels the way they do and that's no longer the case. GF was not the one being the troll and to me, honestly, there was nothing more in that thread that was said that hasn't been said in many other non-closed-threads that deserved it to become closed. So naturally, you gotta wonder.... was it the topic?

 

[Hotdog]

When I first responded to in this thread, I was unaware of which thread GF was talking about. When I realized and I saw that the other trans thread was closed, I gotta say, I'm on GF's side all day long on this one.

I'm kind of surprised that so many people are telling GF to leave it be or crack jokes about this being another out there post from him. To be fair, yeah, GF has made some weird posts but I don't read into them too much. I either think the dude is drinking or just having one of those days or is just taking a strong take to ruffle some feathers. I'd hate to compare him to me (for his sake) but I relate to him. Lord knows I have my days where I'm on one on here, or have some liquor in me or emotions tied to the topic at hand. It's weird because I'm a pretty chill and laid back person irl. Dat online persona doe.

That said, if one were to put themselves in GF's shoes, they'd clearly understand how deeply he's involved in this topic. They'd understand that the dude has a trans daughter, went through the learning, loving, adapting process to be a better dad and to support her and her community. So while people may think he needs to give it a rest, leave it be, it's easy for you to say. Like @Wes Mantooth told me, it's a lil tone-deaf. GF is emotionally involved in this topic for good reason and I'm sure some posts either anger or hurt him.

The last I remember of what was being posted in the trans thread was NPC arguing something I don't think GF (unless I'm missing something) never argued and was rubbing it in his face while being a dick about it. He was basically saying trans shouldn't be able to participate in sports after transitioning. I don't think GF ever argued that and I know in the past, he's had very reasonable responses to my stance on the topic.

The exchange basically read like this to me:

NPC: trans shouldn't play sports after transitioning *insert ******* comment and person attack on GF and say he's wrong and delusional.*
GF: *insert emotional reaction*
NPC: *insert another dickish comment and jab*
Wash, rinse, repeat.

The thing is, if you read the comments, I believe there could be some common ground found if posters took the time to either mediate or get the conversation focused on a discussion that while there may differences of opinions, there could be some positives and understanding that come from it.

That's why closing the thread and the discussion is the most disappointing thing to me. There was opportunity for growth and education and sharing why one feels the way they do and that's no longer the case. GF was not the one being the troll and to me, honestly, there was nothing more in that thread that was said that hasn't been said in many other non-closed-threads that deserved it to become closed. So naturally, you gotta wonder.... was it the topic?

This is BS. Why dont you just post the actual words I said rather than putting words in mouth?

****ing liar

 

[Archie Moses]

This is BS. Why dont you just post the actual words I said rather than putting words in mouth?

****ing liar

It was a summary from what I remembered from the conversation. I just went back and read the last three pages of the thread and I think my summary is pretty spot on. I'm sure you're going to feel like you were the one being attacked in the thread, but if you go back and read your comments you make to a father of a transgender child, I'm not sure how one can think what you posted isn't offensive. I'm not invalidating all of your points. I'm saying how I felt reading it e.g. this comment: "I could give a **** less if you are ignoring me. You are like a child. Take you ball and go home baby.

Hope that hangover is kicking your *** right now."

You make multiple comments directed at either GF or name call saying things like he's delusional. Does GF respond like a saint? No, and why ****ing should he? He's adapted and chose to love and support his daughter and you keep posting things that make it personal. How should he respond?

You, or anyone else can go back and read the thread. Read the last few pages. I wasn't putting words in your mouth or GF's mouth because it was a hyperbolic summary of how the conversation went that ultimately had the thread closed.

If you feel otherwise, feel free to explain.

 

[Hotdog]

The truth of what is going on here is that Jazzfanz is littered with pretentious blow hards who dont know they are really the trolls. If someone states an opinion that doesn't agree with them, that person is attacked.

Jazzfanz Definition of Troll - Doesnt agree with me.

Pretty sad.

 

[Hotdog]

It was a summary from what I remembered from the conversation. I just went back and read the last three pages of the thread and I think my summary is pretty spot on. I'm sure you're going to feel like you were the one being attacked in the thread, but if you go back and read your comments you make to a father of a transgender child, I'm not sure how one can think what you posted isn't offensive. I'm not invalidating all of your points. I'm saying how I felt reading it e.g. this comment: "I could give a **** less if you are ignoring me. You are like a child. Take you ball and go home baby.

Hope that hangover is kicking your *** right now."

You make multiple comments directed at either GF or name call saying things like he's delusional. Does GF respond like a saint? No, and why ****ing should he? He's adapted and chose to love and support his daughter and you keep posting things that make it personal. How should he respond?

You, or anyone else can go back and read the thread. Read the last few pages. I wasn't putting words in your mouth or GF's mouth because it was a hyperbolic summary of how the conversation went that ultimately had the thread closed.

If you feel otherwise, feel free to explain.

Ya, like I said. You made it up. You cant point to a post where I was disrespectful to him about his daughter. He literally said he was willing to have a conversation about the topic. So I talked about it from the perspective I see it. No where was I disrespectful. Can you post the words you feel were disrespectful? I dont think you can. You have an idea in your head that isnt true.

The comment calling him a child and a baby, and about the hang over? That's the worse I said to him after he responds to me the way he did.

Im so tired of this ****ing BS where one side thinks they can be a dick but if they get a dickhead response back then that other person is in the wrong.

If you follow the conversation from start to finish it is obvious who the troll and a-hole is. Or you can be biased, cherry pick, and take sides.

 

[Archie Moses]

The truth of what is going on here is that Jazzfanz is littered with pretentious blow hards who dont know they are really the trolls. If someone states an opinion that doesn't agree with them, that person is attacked.

Jazzfanz Definition of Troll - Doesnt agree with me.

Pretty sad.

I disagree with this. For example, in the transgender thread I posted a similar stance as you did yet GF was very civil and reasonable with me.

The difference is the tone in your posts, the immaturity (the irony of me saying this,) and the extreme examples and blanket statements you made. Your posts warranted a certain reaction. When you got the reaction you knew you were going to get, you resorted to name calling and being a dick.

Granted, OB can be annoying as hell to respond to and his question responses to questions is a hell of an annoying tactic - one that I used on @NAOS just yesterday - hehepeepeecaca.

Yes, there are trolls on here. Yes, there can be liberal bullying on here. But you're like the Thriller of the right, man. You gotta be able to see this somehow.

Why victimize yourself?

 

[Harambe]

This site is riddled with trolls. There are posters here who have been posting for years, some for 10 years or more, who have recently devolved into trolls.

It feels like someone called out the mods over the last few years over not doing anything about trolls. Like someone saw it coming.