Omnibus Gordon Hayward Thread (To clean up the Board some)

[freakazoid]

I want DL to build a championship so I want him to look at all the options, not just the ones that suit a few short-sighted fans.

Really? The short-sighted view would be expecting this rebuild to be over now, in which case overpaying Gordon might not be a bad idea. However, if it takes several more years, Hayward just leads us to slightly worse draft pick while hurting our flexibility. It all comes down to how confident you are on Exum, or anyone else for that matter, blowing up. If that happens, overpaying Hayward could work out fine. If it doesn't, Hayward's contract will be a significant factor in hindering our rebuild.
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I admire the uptimism, but I'm betting this rebuild will take a few more years.

Hayward is considered a top 50 player in the league. Such hyperbole...

Maybe, but I'd be interested to see a list, and then a case made for everyone above him being worthy of this kind of contract. To me, it all depends on the situation of the team signing the bad contract. It makes a hell of a lot more sense for a team looking to get past the first round. For a rebuilding team, it could mean just prolonging the rebuild. Possibly for years. I think we can all agree that the longer you get stuck at the bottom, the harder it is to get out. I will say that if Exum blows up into a borderline all-star sooner rather than later, overpaying Gordo won't look so bad. But if paying Gordo just gets us to the 10th pick instead of the 5th for the next few years, all the time limiting our flexibility, I'd call that a major ****up.

 

[Stoked]

Unfotunately, he's given us no reason to think he will or is even capable of doing that.

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He has to given us reason to think it is possible. He has shot those %s before and averaged 16, 5 & 5 last year. If he intiates the offense less (I think he will with the addition of Exum) and his %s go back up, (I think they will with a better shot selection as a result of not initiaing the O, then it is possible.

 

[seattlejazzfan]

He has to given us reason to think it is possible. He has shot those %s before and averaged 16, 5 & 5 last year. If he intiates the offense less (I think he will with the addition of Exum) and his %s go back up, (I think they will with a better shot selection as a result of not initiaing the O, then it is possible.

But he never did either at the same time or even came close. When he shot more, his shooting suffered. His best chance to shoot those %s is to shoot a lot less - not score 20ppg.

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[SojoDave]

This may have been posted before, but this is a very interesting read...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...harlotte-hornets-max-offer-to-gordon-hayward/

 

[Stoked]

But he never did either at the same time or even came close. When he shot more, his shooting suffered. His best chance to shoot those %s is to shoot a lot less - not score 20ppg.

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His shooting suffered as he had a poorer shoot selection. If he is set up then I think hes numbers will go back up towards his career averages. I think last years shooting was an abberation. His best chance to shot those %s is better shots.

Last year his rebounding and assist game grew as a result of him being the man. I think he might maintain his rebounding numbers and his passing has certainly improved which might help him maintain his assist numbers.

Keep in mind I am saying it is possible, not guaranteed.

 

[franklin]

Really? The short-sighted view would be expecting this rebuild to be over now, in which case overpaying Gordon might not be a bad idea.

If you read that to mean I expect the rebuild to be over now, and Hayward to be a key piece, then you need to read it again.

However, if it takes several more years, Hayward just leads us to slightly worse draft pick while hurting our flexibility. It all comes down to how confident you are on Exum, or anyone else for that matter, blowing up. If that happens, overpaying Hayward could work out fine. If it doesn't, Hayward's contract will be a significant factor in hindering our rebuild.
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I admire the uptimism, but I'm betting this rebuild will take a few more years.

You prove my point by regurgitating the claim that the only way to build this team up is to dump Hayward, tank, and using flexibility in another direction.

Again, if the Jazz can project significant increases in cap salary while Hayward's raises shrink in relative terms, and also project improvements in Hayward's game, then this contract can be considered an easily tradable asset a couple years down the line.

I don't care if you disagree about Hayward's future value, that wasn't the point. It's that NBA front offices have to look at this contract with those considerations in mind. Matching Hayward and waiting for his current overvalued contract to converge on his future value, at which point you can package him for something else, is an option worth considering.

You are correct that the Jazz need to continue the rebuild. My scenario was to package Hayward with 2-3 first round picks for a true third cog, after acquiring a second over the next couple of seasons.

Hayward's contract will be a significant factor in hindering our rebuild.

As the significant interest in Hayward and Parsons has shown, the Jazz will have no problem dumping this contract as soon as next summer. It will hinder nothing further than this one season, and since cap space isn't buying a whole lot, taking the chance on Hayward for one more season may be the smartest route to go.

 

[franklin]

As the significant interest in Hayward and Parsons has shown, the Jazz will have no problem dumping this contract as soon as next summer. It will hinder nothing further than this one season, and since cap space isn't buying a whole lot, taking the chance on Hayward for one more season may be the smartest route to go.

I think I just talked myself into matching Hayward as the best path forward if nothing significant is offered to the Jazz in the next 72 hours.

 

[GVC]

I will use the AK47 reference as an example. The Jazz went from pretenders to contenders in the span of 2 years. TWO YEARS! In the 2004-2005 season, AK47 had a year of inflated stats as the versatile, #1 point forward option (Boozer was hurt that year and didn’t play), leading the jazz to a 26-56 record. What did the jazz do as a reward for one of the worst records in the NBA? They gave AK the max. (Any of this sound familiar??)

AK's contract was extended before the start of the 2004/05 season, after leading a bunch of nobodies to within an inch of a playoff birth and making the all-star team in 03/04.

Further, while max contracts aren't nearly as terrible now as they were under the 1999 CBA, AK's 2003/04 season was in a different league than Gordo's 2013/14 season. AK was one of the most dynamic players in the league, arguably already a top-10 player, and an all-star. Gordo looked like a #3 option and average defender...


AK - 2003/04 (age 22)

78 games
37.1 minutes
16.5 points
8.1 rebounds
3.1 assists
1.9 steals
2.8 blocks
2.8 turnovers
.471 2pt
.338 3pt (.471 from the corner)
.790 ft
.559 TS
On-Off/100 possessions: +11.4

5th in the NBA in win shares (11.6)
10th in win shares per 48 (among players with 2000+ minutes, .192)
8th in PER (among players with 2000+ minutes, 22.6)
21st in ORtg (among players with 2000+ minutes, 111)
16th in DRtg (among players with 2000+ minutes, 97)


Gordo - 2013/14 (age 23)

77 games
36.4 minutes
16.2 points
5.1 rebounds
5.2 assists
1.4 steals
0.5 blocks
2.8 turnovers
.453 2pt
.304 3pt (.275 from the corner)
.816 ft
.520 TS
On-Off/100 possessions: +0.1

136th in the NBA in win shares (3.6)
98th in win shares per 48 (among players with 2000+ minutes, .062)
54th in PER (among players with 2000+ minutes, 16.2)
91st in ORtg (among players with 2000+ minutes, 105)
90th in DRtg (among players with 2000+ minutes, 111)

 

[seattlejazzfan]

AK's contract was extended before the start of the 2004/05 season, after leading a bunch of nobodies to within an inch of a playoff birth and making the all-star team in 03/04.

Further, while max contracts aren't nearly as terrible now as they were under the 1999 CBA, AK's 2003/04 season was in a different league than Gordo's 2013/14 season. AK was one of the most dynamic players in the league, arguably already a top-10 player, and an all-star. Gordo looked like a #3 option and average defender...


AK - 2003/04 (age 22)

78 games
37.1 minutes
16.5 points
8.1 rebounds
3.1 assists
1.9 steals
2.8 blocks
2.8 turnovers
.471 2pt
.338 3pt (.471 from the corner)
.790 ft
.559 TS
On-Off/100 possessions: +11.4

5th in the NBA in win shares (11.6)
10th in win shares per 48 (among players with 2000+ minutes, .192)
8th in PER (among players with 2000+ minutes, 22.6)
21st in ORtg (among players with 2000+ minutes, 111)
16th in DRtg (among players with 2000+ minutes, 97)


Gordo - 2013/14 (age 23)

77 games
36.4 minutes
16.2 points
5.1 rebounds
5.2 assists
1.4 steals
0.5 blocks
2.8 turnovers
.453 2pt
.304 3pt (.275 from the corner)
.816 ft
.520 TS
On-Off/100 possessions: +0.1

136th in the NBA in win shares (3.6)
98th in win shares per 48 (among players with 2000+ minutes, .062)
54th in PER (among players with 2000+ minutes, 16.2)
91st in ORtg (among players with 2000+ minutes, 105)
90th in DRtg (among players with 2000+ minutes, 111)

Yikes.

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[JAZZGASM]

Yikes.

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True. The Jazz were struggling with offering him the max, but then Gasol got offered the max (and the consensus at the time was AK was a better player--turned out not to be true)

 

[seattlejazzfan]

True. The Jazz were struggling with offering him the max, but then Gasol got offered the max (and the consensus at the time was AK was a better player--turned out not to be true)

I was mainly talking about the difference in numbers between the two. AK was a legit star, while Hayward pretty much the mediocre player we all know and love.

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[JAZZGASM]

I was mainly talking about the difference in numbers between the two. AK was a legit star, while Hayward pretty much the mediocre player we all know and love.

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I got your point and agreed. I was just pointing out the Jazz even struggled to give AK the max. In hindsight,obviously we overpaid for AK, but if he had maintained his level of play with minimal injury, I wouldn't have complained too much. He was a stats machine, and did a lot of intangibles too. Loved vintage AK.