On the record...

[KqWIN]

Not only that, but most teams used their centers to guard Vanderbilt last year. It's not like KAT being guarded by 4's is new.

Right. Vando is a good player, but we’re going to quickly realize he’s a C on offense and a C that’s much worse at offense than Gobert. Gobert will elevate that team on both ends.

I’m not sure how far MIN will go, but for me it’s not a reservation about Gobert-Towns. Those guys are really ****ing good. It’s more about the development/play of Russell/Edwards/McDaniels.

I think playing in a different system will help Gobert grow as a player too. He was also a victim of Quin’s no adjustment rigid defense. He was often our best perimeter defender, but you could tell his instincts were not there because it’s not something he’d done much in games and probably never in practice.

The TWolves played an opposite style of defense last year. Instead of funneling everything to the big and staying home they relied heavily on scrambling and creating turnovers. Gobert is a very smart, disciplined player. I think he’ll pick things up quick and become an even bigger defensive force.

I don’t think Gobert deserved much blame if any all to begin with….but Quin’s rigidness did a number on the Jazz playoff defense. The habits were so deeply formed and did not stand up to playoff offenses and game plans. We saw it with everyone, getting out of that cycle will make Gobert a better player.

 

[gomretat]

This is not the right analogy… the hunting and gathering of picks lasts for a little while not in perpetuity. The correct analogy is this is like the young married couple that is struggling financially and can’t buy a house… instead of continuing the struggle they move in with the in laws for a little while to save money for a down payment and a little security. Now it might suck **** for a year but in a year they can save 5-10 times what the could otherwise. So over a 10 year period will they be sad they paused for a year or two to make the other 8 years better? Bet they won’t…

Now along the way some good or bad things could happen that speed up or slow down that strategy… no one will be happy if the couple just turn into losers that live with their parents forever. That isn’t the goal at all. It’s taking on some pain for a long term goal you really want. The goal is not to take on pain forever… that’s ridiculous.

So what is the window for deciding when to blow it up and start over versus seeing if you can build on what you have? We had two all-stars who were still getting better or in their prime. How quickly do you decide you cant make it and blow it up because you aren't good enough? I get blowing it up if your all-stars are past their prime. This could very easily become perpetual pain if you dont get really lucky with the picks.

 

[Elizah Huge]

So what is the window for deciding when to blow it up and start over versus seeing if you can build on what you have? We had two all-stars who were still getting better or in their prime. How quickly do you decide you cant make it and blow it up because you aren't good enough? I get blowing it up if your all-stars are past their prime. This could very easily become perpetual pain if you dont get really lucky with the picks.

When there is no avenue to get better. We had zero assets and zero picks.

 

[Jingled]

Yeah….To give up like we did I think you have to have some feeling of, “we did all we could and it wasn’t enough”. But that is so far from the truth with this recent version of the Jazz.

I said this way back, but if I was a GM and believed I did not suck at my job I would have absolutely done what I could to win with Rudy and Don (or whatever winning player(s) you trade Don for).

Anyone can tank and it’s a permanently available option. Having Rudy and Don was a true power position and if I had confidence in making good moves I’d definitely move forward with them.

Last year was pretty close to worst case scenario and the Jazz were still a top 3 SRS team. If you don’t suck as a FO, make the moves to address the weaknesses. They were obvious, well defined, and not impossible to address.

I definitely think there were things the front office could have done differently the past few seasons to give us a better chance to win with Rudy and Don, but I think it reached the point this offseason that blowing it up was the best option. We had no cap space, no draft picks, and none of our players outside of Rudy and Don have much trade value. I Honestly don't see a path forward where we could have improved the team around Rudy and Don. This team needed a major overhaul...making moves around the margins using our taxpayer MLE and vet minimums wasn't going to move the needle at all, we needed to make upgrades in the starting lineup, and I don't think we had a way to do that. We could have kept Rudy and Don the next few years and we likely still would've been a good regular season team, but in the playoffs we were never going to be anything more than a first or second round exit.

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

When there is no avenue to get better. We had zero assets and zero picks.

Ainge said it best. No aspect of the season was fun.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

So what is the window for deciding when to blow it up and start over versus seeing if you can build on what you have? We had two all-stars who were still getting better or in their prime. How quickly do you decide you cant make it and blow it up because you aren't good enough? I get blowing it up if your all-stars are past their prime. This could very easily become perpetual pain if you dont get really lucky with the picks.

Valid question and I think its different for each situation. The key element to me revolved around Donovan... "Him and Rudy don't have to be best buds" was a common refrain from Jazz folks... well guess what? They do have to enjoy working together and be more than just co-workers for it to work long term and for Donovan to be happy. If that relationship was awesome I think you keep those two together and try something different. It likely doesn't work even if they homies... but when there is so much tinder for a drama fire it doesn't take much to explode with where the relationship was.

Could have kept Rudy and pivoted around him I guess... but we got such a big return in trade its tough to say no and Don might not return back pieces that are win-now or good enough.

I'm also a little sick of hearing everyone say they should have changed the roster around those guys... that is only valid before last season... as I think we were conservative there. We were trying like hell to move guys and very clearly the market said "we won't give you anything good". Bogey, Ingles, and Mike (for the right price) could have been moved... but the returns were subpar. Do we think Ainge was sitting there thumbing his hole and not trying to move those guys. Then Ingles tore his ACL... Mike and Bogey are generally declining in trade value... I think it is very easy for us to say "do something!!!" but there wasn't anything good.

Again, under the DL regime I think we could and should have changed things up... sounded like JZ was trying in the offseason and Quin put the breaks on it.

It was just so clear to me that it was the right time if you wanted to get a premium for the guys you have... waiting a year would provide what?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I definitely think there were things the front office could have done differently the past few seasons to give us a better chance to win with Rudy and Don, but I think it reached the point this offseason that blowing it up was the best option. We had no cap space, no draft picks, and none of our players outside of Rudy and Don have much trade value. I Honestly don't see a path forward where we could have improved the team around Rudy and Don. This team needed a major overhaul...making moves around the margins using our taxpayer MLE and vet minimums wasn't going to move the needle at all, we needed to make upgrades in the starting lineup, and I don't think we had a way to do that. We could have kept Rudy and Don the next few years and we likely still would've been a good regular season team, but in the playoffs we were never going to be anything more than a first or second round exit.

I think we were a play in team either way. Look at how we closed the season after going 20-7... factor in we have no young players and all the older guys are likely to decline at least a little... the cap meant using the Taxpayer MLE was going to be crazy spendy.

We could have traded our draft picks in 2026 and beyond (as some will tell you they don't mean much) but does that even land you Jerami Grant? Is that gonna change things in a material way?

So long as we trade Don for a good return and get something for a few of the other vets I am 100% on board with what we decided. If we half *** it now and keep Don and Bogey etc. then I think we just don't know what we are doing.

 

[KqWIN]

I definitely think there were things the front office could have done differently the past few seasons to give us a better chance to win with Rudy and Don, but I think it reached the point this offseason that blowing it up was the best option. We had no cap space, no draft picks, and none of our players outside of Rudy and Don have much trade value. I Honestly don't see a path forward where we could have improved the team around Rudy and Don. This team needed a major overhaul...making moves around the margins using our taxpayer MLE and vet minimums wasn't going to move the needle at all, we needed to make upgrades in the starting lineup, and I don't think we had a way to do that. We could have kept Rudy and Don the next few years and we likely still would've been a good regular season team, but in the playoffs we were never going to be anything more than a first or second round exit.

I won't disagree that it would have been a challenge to keep building around Rudy and Don and that this challenge was becoming increasingly more difficult with the horrific string of moves the FO had recently made. But that doesn't necessarily mean blowing it up was the right move. The path forward with Rudy+Don was difficult, but the path without them is also extremely difficult. Rudy and Don without much else is a better starting point than having nothing but also having a bunch of mediocre/bad picks.

 

[infection]

Valid question and I think its different for each situation. The key element to me revolved around Donovan... "Him and Rudy don't have to be best buds" was a common refrain from Jazz folks... well guess what? They do have to enjoy working together and be more than just co-workers for it to work long term and for Donovan to be happy. If that relationship was awesome I think you keep those two together and try something different. It likely doesn't work even if they homies... but when there is so much tinder for a drama fire it doesn't take much to explode with where the relationship was.

Could have kept Rudy and pivoted around him I guess... but we got such a big return in trade its tough to say no and Don might not return back pieces that are win-now or good enough.

I'm also a little sick of hearing everyone say they should have changed the roster around those guys... that is only valid before last season... as I think we were conservative there. We were trying like hell to move guys and very clearly the market said "we won't give you anything good". Bogey, Ingles, and Mike (for the right price) could have been moved... but the returns were subpar. Do we think Ainge was sitting there thumbing his hole and not trying to move those guys. Then Ingles tore his ACL... Mike and Bogey are generally declining in trade value... I think it is very easy for us to say "do something!!!" but there wasn't anything good.

Again, under the DL regime I think we could and should have changed things up... sounded like JZ was trying in the offseason and Quin put the breaks on it.

It was just so clear to me that it was the right time if you wanted to get a premium for the guys you have... waiting a year would provide what?

Instead of trading our old car for 5 raffle tickets, we could have kept the car for an additional year to get us to work, then traded it for 4 raffle tickets. Or, best yet, we could have kept the car, traded the hubcaps that everyone thinks are sexy for 3 raffle tickets, then go make major fixes and/or upgrades on the car by bartering the raffle tickets. And still be able to get to work.

 

[infection]

So long as we trade Don for a good return and get something for a few of the other vets I am 100% on board with what we decided. If we half *** it now and keep Don and Bogey etc. then I think we just don't know what we are doing.

We traded the car for 2.5 raffle tickets and kept the hubcaps. I ****ing love hubcaps without a car. Maybe we could put them on display in a china cabinet.

 

[infection]

But yes, now that the car is gone, we absolutely must tear it all down. On principle I can’t get into watching a ****** team that has kept the wrong guy and knowing I’m watching a ****** team and a half *** rebuild because he came into the league in the most privileged position with this franchise and put us in this situation because he couldn’t just come out and be adamant about being competitive with the guy we just dumped.

 

[KqWIN]

Valid question and I think its different for each situation. The key element to me revolved around Donovan... "Him and Rudy don't have to be best buds" was a common refrain from Jazz folks... well guess what? They do have to enjoy working together and be more than just co-workers for it to work long term and for Donovan to be happy. If that relationship was awesome I think you keep those two together and try something different. It likely doesn't work even if they homies... but when there is so much tinder for a drama fire it doesn't take much to explode with where the relationship was.

Could have kept Rudy and pivoted around him I guess... but we got such a big return in trade its tough to say no and Don might not return back pieces that are win-now or good enough.

I'm also a little sick of hearing everyone say they should have changed the roster around those guys... that is only valid before last season... as I think we were conservative there. We were trying like hell to move guys and very clearly the market said "we won't give you anything good". Bogey, Ingles, and Mike (for the right price) could have been moved... but the returns were subpar. Do we think Ainge was sitting there thumbing his hole and not trying to move those guys. Then Ingles tore his ACL... Mike and Bogey are generally declining in trade value... I think it is very easy for us to say "do something!!!" but there wasn't anything good.

Again, under the DL regime I think we could and should have changed things up... sounded like JZ was trying in the offseason and Quin put the breaks on it.

It was just so clear to me that it was the right time if you wanted to get a premium for the guys you have... waiting a year would provide what?

I strongly disagree with the bolded part. For one, there several good players that would have been extremely helpful that were traded/acquired for little to nothing. It's not speculation that those players could have been had for very little, it was reality that they were acquired for very little. Powell and Covington is the most obvious example of this. Two perfect fitting players, LAC got them for very little. Of course we could have beaten that offer.

I'm also not going to forget the moaning and groaning on this very forum when it came to trading certain players. Fact is, a lot of people here justified sitting on our ***. We can't trade Bogey/Clarkson/Conley because he's too valuable. Grass isn't always greener. That kind of stuff was so prevalent. I know this because I thought it was obvious we should have made that type of move, but it was met with so much push back. The FO put too much weight into stuff like, "if Conley were healthy" and not enough weight into stuff like "we have zero good defenders outside of Rudy". And that sentiment was echoed around here too.

We also heard all year long that changes were going to happen and that this was the last time we were going to see this rendition of the team. When it came to improving around Don and Rudy, I do speculate Ainge was sitting on his ***. Does that mean he was not working? No, but what I'm saying is that he probably already made up his mind to blow it up. So instead of improving, we decided to waste the last year of Rudy and Don to better position ourselves for the blowup. I feel as though there was a strong chance the decision was already made to not go forward with Don/Rudy, so moves to improve around them were not considered.