Pick a Salary Dump Trade

[NUMBERICA]

I mentioned Jordan Poole a couple of days ago and it wasn’t accepted well. Are you guys out on him?

I don’t know how I feel, honestly. There seems to be both a need and an opportunity to flip, but he also seems like a huge chode, which if he’s doing it in that environment is a sign he might just be a total chode and not just a victim of bad culture or a phase or whatever.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I brought up Hawks fans because you don't seem to consider the other side of these trades. Point is everyone, whether it's a fan or a GM, has higher hopes and aspirations to this.

I very much do consider the other side... I consider all parts of the other side not just the casuals. I consider the GM wanting to make a splash but also looking at his owner and saying he's going to have to write a luxury tax check for 30-40M for a mediocre team and that next year he should budget for a much larger tax bill or they can let one of their stars walk for nothing. There are obviously lots of choices but the GM has a boss... that boss decided last year that a ****** first was worth giving up a good starter on a value deal. I don't think its unreasonable to think he might make a similar assessment here... especially since the new CBA is going to hammer teams even harder now. Of course they aspire to do something more fun than make the books balance... but this is a huge part of the job too. Part than fans don't understand fully.

They may have to end up doing this anyways, but to make the decision and punt before you even have the chance to do something else just isn't something I think will happen. If you presented this to a non jazz fan they would we see the problem with getting worse in the present and the future. I do believe that a new FO would like to gives themselves a chance to reshape their team and explore other options.

I don't think you get it... without a move like this they don't get a chance to do something. If they wait until FA nothing changes... any deal they can do on draft night is available in FA... they can agree and wait until July 1. Without some sort of agreement are they going to go use a cap exception? An exception that could further bury them in tax? There is nothing they are doing in FA that would be hampered by doing a draft night deal... its very much the opposite... it allows you to shop with more confidence.

Maybe I'm wrong about that, but feel free to seek out outside opinions if you think this is a trade that this these trades not only make sense, but are so good that they have to forgo any future options and shape their off season around it. I don't care to go into this further, but to me all of these trades are viewed through a heavy a Jazz centric lens.

They are not no brainer deals for the other teams... but they are good enough. I think they are absolutely realistic. There are definitely two sides to the "wait and keep your powder dry" mentality. A different opportunity opens up but other doors will shut. A swap is the lowest cost I think they will end up paying if they want to dump salary and get something they can use now too.

I've said my piece.

 

[HeatCheck]

I mentioned Jordan Poole a couple of days ago and it wasn’t accepted well. Are you guys out on him?

Maybe if his contract was for 2 additional years and not 4. Jazz will need to give Lauri his extension in '25 and don't think it's a good idea to have Poole's contract on the books for 4 more years. I don't want to be the team paying him over $35 mil in '26-'27.

 

[HeatCheck]

Any of the trades proposed in the initial post are fine although I'm a little skeptical about Collins. Actually I would prefer to spend the capspace to take on contracts/picks from teams over the tax apron moreso than spending that money in a weak FA class.

 

[KqWIN]

I don't think you get it... without a move like this they don't get a chance to do something. If they wait until FA nothing changes... any deal they can do on draft night is available in FA... they can agree and wait until July 1. Without some sort of agreement are they going to go use a cap exception? An exception that could further bury them in tax? There is nothing they are doing in FA that would be hampered by doing a draft night deal... its very much the opposite... it allows you to shop with more confidence.

Yeah I think it's safe to say I don't get what the **** you are saying. If they agree to trade Collins and the 15th pick it changes what they can do later, how could it not? That is a big decision and it absolutely has ripple effects on what their next steps are. If you trade a player or pick you can no longer trade that player or pick because you already traded it. You mean to tell me that if they traded John Collins on draft night they are still able to use him a different deal later? You can't do that. I do not even care to even discuss how nonsensical this is. There is more than one way to shed money and/or trade John Collins, but if you trade John Collins there is no other option to trade John Collins.

 

[Cptgrnlngs22]

I also think if you can sneak up into the teens and get a pick then it might make a consolidation and move up trade more feasible with Orlando... so if you can get the #15, #18, #19 pick maybe you are more inclined to do 9/16 for #6. If you can land #15 can you stack that with something Dallas likes to move to #10. Would just love to get a wing/forward and Cason Wallace.

If you came out of the draft with Cason, Ausar, and John Collins... like **** man... I feel damn good about where we are and where we are going.

I love this thinking. I really hope DA can make some bold maneuvers this draft.

 

[Cptgrnlngs22]

I also think if you can sneak up into the teens and get a pick then it might make a consolidation and move up trade more feasible with Orlando... so if you can get the #15, #18, #19 pick maybe you are more inclined to do 9/16 for #6. If you can land #15 can you stack that with something Dallas likes to move to #10. Would just love to get a wing/forward and Cason Wallace.

If you came out of the draft with Cason, Ausar, and John Collins... like **** man... I feel damn good about where we are and where we are going.

Would also be great to get Jonathan Isaac out of this deal

 

[NUMBERICA]

Trade 1. It’s the cleanest, simplest, and makes the most sense. Getting the 15th pick rather than the 18th might be kind of a big deal, but this seems to be the part of the draft where everyone’s boards REALLY starts diverging. But at #15 you’re looking at Keyonte, Hawkins, Bufkin, Miller, GG (for those interested), and/or Bilal available and 2-3 of that crop will be off the board at 18/19.

BUUUT, I like having Dipo’s short money. Clean.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yeah I think it's safe to say I don't get what the **** you are saying. If they agree to trade Collins and the 15th pick it changes what they can do later, how could it not? That is a big decision and it absolutely has ripple effects on what their next steps are. If you trade a player or pick you can no longer trade that player or pick because you already traded it. You mean to tell me that if they traded John Collins on draft night they are still able to use him a different deal later? You can't do that. I do not even care to even discuss how nonsensical this is. There is more than one way to shed money and/or trade John Collins, but if you trade John Collins there is no other option to trade John Collins.

What you read and what you comprehend are wild.

I know you can’t trade people twice.

What is the only thing you can’t do on draft night that you can do when FA opens? That’s right sign players. All the trades you want to do on July 1 are open on draft night.

What kind of players will you be able to sign when you are in cap hell? That’s right minimum players. So what minimum players are they going to miss out on if they move Collins for cap space? Zero… none.

What if they moved Collins and freed up some cap room to use exceptions? Wait… would that give them (gasp) more flexibility to “shape the roster”? It would indeed.

What if they cleared room and a spot in the rotation… would that mean they get attention from more FAs? Nah players don’t want a clearer path to playing time.

So you see… moving Collins on draft night might very well leave them with more options to shape the roster. They also may lose the ability to use 15 in a trade because the guy they drafted may not be the first choice of the team they later trade with. Also remember I have them 28 in the deal so they can take the guy they like best… if they wait and do the deal they may have wanted a Bane but all you can offer is a Udoka. So getting to chose the guy they select gives them more ability to shape the roster how they like while getting better value in a trade because they have the acquirer their opportunity to do the same.

But sure… they should wait it out… once a few teams have used up their space everyone will be able to slide Collins 25M and 3 more years left… it’s nothing… definitely shouldn’t plan around that type of thing.

You don’t have to agree with the trade but it’s pretty simple to see that the options they have on draft night are likely as good or better than any other options they will have later… and that taking care of the hard thing first gives more options later.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

I think a three-way scenario with Atlanta and Dallas, whereby Dallas gets Collins and the Jazz take a bad contract along with #10, should be entirely doable. Knowing Ainge, he'll ask for #15 from Atlanta as well, but I'm not sure he'd offer the Lakers pick to get it.

The Jazz have been discussing John Collins trades with Atlanta for a year now. Ainge helping Dallas would be fake help, like the way he helped the Lakers at the trade deadline. Collins isn't going to change Dallas' fortunes.

Jazz could draft Cason Wallace and Gradey Dick at 9 and 10, or they could offer both picks to Detroit for #5 in order to snag Whitmore or a Thompson.

 

[KqWIN]

What you read and what you comprehend are wild.

I know you can’t trade people twice.

What is the only thing you can’t do on draft night that you can do when FA opens? That’s right sign players. All the trades you want to do on July 1 are open on draft night.

What kind of players will you be able to sign when you are in cap hell? That’s right minimum players. So what minimum players are they going to miss out on if they move Collins for cap space? Zero… none.

What if they moved Collins and freed up some cap room to use exceptions? Wait… would that give them (gasp) more flexibility to “shape the roster”? It would indeed.

What if they cleared room and a spot in the rotation… would that mean they get attention from more FAs? Nah players don’t want a clearer path to playing time.

So you see… moving Collins on draft night might very well leave them with more options to shape the roster. They also may lose the ability to use 15 in a trade because the guy they drafted may not be the first choice of the team they later trade with. Also remember I have them 28 in the deal so they can take the guy they like best… if they wait and do the deal they may have wanted a Bane but all you can offer is a Udoka. So getting to chose the guy they select gives them more ability to shape the roster how they like while getting better value in a trade because they have the acquirer their opportunity to do the same.

But sure… they should wait it out… once a few teams have used up their space everyone will be able to slide Collins 25M and 3 more years left… it’s nothing… definitely shouldn’t plan around that type of thing.

You don’t have to agree with the trade but it’s pretty simple to see that the options they have on draft night are likely as good or better than any other options they will have later… and that taking care of the hard thing first gives more options later.

Why do you do the thing where you create a made up statement and then passive aggressively try to point out the craziness in the statement you made up? It's funny lol.

I disagree, it is not simple to see that the options are better now than later. There is way more than one way to deal with Collins and the tax situation. You don't even have to trade Collins to get under the tax and Collins isn't their only financial problem right now. If you make this deal, you obviously rule out the million other ways to accomplish the same goal. Timing of this makes a deal have to be "can't say no" and this is far from that. Dropping in the draft and swapping KO for JC is not some can't miss opportunity. I'll easily take the field of other opportunities and avenues to accomplish the same general goals and potentially much more.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Why do you do the thing where you create a made up statement and then passive aggressively try to point out the craziness in the statement you made up? It's funny lol.

Because you quite literally said if you trade a player you can no longer trade said player… yeah no ****.

I disagree, it is not simple to see that the options are better now than later. There is way more than one way to deal with Collins and the tax situation. You don't even have to trade Collins to get under the tax and Collins isn't their only financial problem right now. If you make this deal, you obviously rule out the million other ways to accomplish the same goal. Timing of this makes a deal have to be "can't say no" and this is far from that. Dropping in the draft and swapping KO for JC is not some can't miss opportunity. I'll easily take the field of other opportunities and avenues to accomplish the same general goals and potentially much more.

Yeah I mean when your house has been on the market for 3 years and you get an offer at 90% of list price you should definitely pass and wait for someone to offer something better.

You are not actually looking at the situation. You say they have millions of options… they do not… they have like less than 7-8… they have to move one of their high priced dudes or pay the tax and start to incur the wrath of the new cba.

It’s not whether the KO deal is the deal they should do… it’s quite simple the timing… everything they can do when FA is open they can do on draft night. The opposite is not true. The longer they wait the more doors will shut. One may open as the shuffling commences but the set of circumstances they need is specific… so you go ahead and wait but they’ve played the waiting game a ton.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I can’t do it anymore just gotta go on ignore.

 

[fishonjazz]

I mentioned Jordan Poole a couple of days ago and it wasn’t accepted well. Are you guys out on him?

Im neutral on him.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

My point is he might be the thing that actually closes those deals (they will want an on-court product, especially GSW since they’re losing one in their trade). In other words, they might not work without him. Turning a 30 year old reclamation into - in this argument - a trade up of ~10 spots in the draft IS value.

I agree… just would want to make sure the acquiring team really requires him in the deal versus a throw in.

 

[default]

What you read and what you comprehend are wild.

I know you can’t trade people twice.

What is the only thing you can’t do on draft night that you can do when FA opens? That’s right sign players. All the trades you want to do on July 1 are open on draft night.

What kind of players will you be able to sign when you are in cap hell? That’s right minimum players. So what minimum players are they going to miss out on if they move Collins for cap space? Zero… none.

What if they moved Collins and freed up some cap room to use exceptions? Wait… would that give them (gasp) more flexibility to “shape the roster”? It would indeed.

What if they cleared room and a spot in the rotation… would that mean they get attention from more FAs? Nah players don’t want a clearer path to playing time.

So you see… moving Collins on draft night might very well leave them with more options to shape the roster. They also may lose the ability to use 15 in a trade because the guy they drafted may not be the first choice of the team they later trade with. Also remember I have them 28 in the deal so they can take the guy they like best… if they wait and do the deal they may have wanted a Bane but all you can offer is a Udoka. So getting to chose the guy they select gives them more ability to shape the roster how they like while getting better value in a trade because they have the acquirer their opportunity to do the same.

But sure… they should wait it out… once a few teams have used up their space everyone will be able to slide Collins 25M and 3 more years left… it’s nothing… definitely shouldn’t plan around that type of thing.

You don’t have to agree with the trade but it’s pretty simple to see that the options they have on draft night are likely as good or better than any other options they will have later… and that taking care of the hard thing first gives more options later.

You too with extra long posts now?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

You too with extra long posts now?

Ha… they only come when I have to respond to wordy mcwordsmith.

 

[KqWIN]

Because you quite literally said if you trade a player you can no longer trade said player… yeah no ****.

Yeah I mean when your house has been on the market for 3 years and you get an offer at 90% of list price you should definitely pass and wait for someone to offer something better.

You are not actually looking at the situation. You say they have millions of options… they do not… they have like less than 7-8… they have to move one of their high priced dudes or pay the tax and start to incur the wrath of the new cba.

It’s not whether the KO deal is the deal they should do… it’s quite simple the timing… everything they can do when FA is open they can do on draft night. The opposite is not true. The longer they wait the more doors will shut. One may open as the shuffling commences but the set of circumstances they need is specific… so you go ahead and wait but they’ve played the waiting game a ton.

Yeah, and you said trading Collins does not change their options. Yes it does. There are exponentially more ways to do this. By executing this specific trade you are choosing one path and have to commit to it. There are other options, some that would include more flexibility for future moves. For example, what if HOU signs Harden and now wants Capela? You could move him there and probably get something back too. You now have more room under the cap and did not give up your pick. Now look at the options. You keep implying that this is the only way to get it done and they cannot have these future options if they don’t do it. Far from the truth. All of these benefits for getting the tax are great, it is not actually an argument in your favor because it can be achieved otherwise.

Everything that can be done in FA cannot be done on draft night. Turns out there are moving pieces in free agency and those moving pieces create exponentially more opportunities. You can explore different kinds of trades with different players. Again, there is not one way. But there is only one way if you decide to do this and this by no means solves all of their problems.

I think it goes without saying that if they trade the 15th pick they can no longer have that pick and build around that player. If they really like someone at 15 that won’t be there at 28 this whole deal is bunk. Yeah, it’s objectively false that their options are the same because they have literally already changed their roster. You cannot do anything with 15 or Collins once they are traded. If you can’t do that, you cannot say their situation is the same.

If you don’t like extra long posts, just continue make up something and be passive aggressive towards the thing you made up. It’s kind of your go to and it’s hilarious. If you can’t handle a real person with a different opinion I guess you gotta make one up to argue against instead.

 

[KqWIN]

My bad if the posts are long. I've got to say my piece, explain that the person @Handlogten's Heros made up to argue against is not actually me, and then repeat my piece in hopes that he will not make up another fake statement to be passive aggressive against.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The runway for teams like Atlanta and Miami is now gone... they can pull up or run into tax mountain. Danny cleared cap room in part to take advantage of this environment... I expect some teams to do trades that leave fans and media puzzled. Already smart media types have said teams are going to trade good players because their opportunity to get their house in order is this summer.