Privileged by Kyle Korver

[Thee Jazz Fan]

What's odd about it? I believe racist people exist within every racial group. I don't believe there are systematic established advantages that any one race has over another. The advantages that we see, that many prescribe to "White Privilege" is actually class privilege. If you were born poor, you have a high probability of being poor throughout your life. If you were born wealthy, you are likely to remain wealthy. This correlates to rates of incarceration, drug use rates, single parenthood rate, high-school drop out rate, etc. This is irrespective of race.

If white privilege exists, why are Asians the highest earning racial group in the United States? Are they immune to the negative impacts of "White Privilege"?

The privilege being spoken of has nothing to do with pay grade or situation or where you come from. A tipical black man or woman has to openly follow the letter of the law and avoid the appearance of evil, which means no drinking going to bars and nightclubs and not being out at all hours of the night because they will at some point be subjected to the system. Where as a white man can have the same care free life and as long as he breaks no rules/laws he can relax because he’s profiled as a white person that follows the laws where as a black man is automatically, in many cases up to no good.

 

[One Brow]

What's odd about it? I believe racist people exist within every racial group. I don't believe there are systematic established advantages that any one race has over another.

I don't believe it either. I accept the evidence for it.

The advantages that we see, that many prescribe to "White Privilege" is actually class privilege. If you were born poor, you have a high probability of being poor throughout your life. If you were born wealthy, you are likely to remain wealthy. This correlates to rates of incarceration, drug use rates, single parenthood rate, high-school drop out rate, etc. This is irrespective of race.

Wealth also creates privilege. However, when we limit our comparisons to the same socio-economic strata, we stil see racial differences appear. Poor white people have it a little less hard than poor black people. Rich white people have it a little easier than rich black people. The existence of one does not negate the other.

If white privilege exists, why are Asians the highest earning racial group in the United States? Are they immune to the negative impacts of "White Privilege"?

Asians also suffer from discrimination, but as you note, that can be masked by wealth. Many Asian groups came into the country with wealth, overall.

Look up "model minority".

I'm not sure admitting that it exists will solve anything. My issue with Kyle's article is that it offered zero solutions.

Perhaps Kyle is smart enough to know he's not the right person to suggest solutions.

 

[Archie Moses]

If you guys read the article, you'd see Kyle did offer solutions and a plan of action against racism. The idea that someone isn't the right person to offer solutions is shortsighted. Everyone can offer solutions to fight racism.

 

[One Brow]

You just don't listen, do you? How can you say I'm not claiming to be American or not American, to be white or not white if I just said this:

Perhaps you are not a native English speaker. When you use the phrase, "if I'm ... ?", you are indicating a hypothetical. In the context of saying that I am making an assumption, in particular, you're saying that I don't know, not making a claim to be something or not be something.

How much clearly do I have to state that I'm not white nor American?

Do it without making it a hypothetical. For example, had you said 'since if I'm not white nor American', that would have been a clear claim. Maybe it's a translation issue. At any rate, I see you made a clear claim below, so I accept that you are not white and not American.

Does your "privilege" demands for me to produce some kind of document to prove that?

1) I don't really care, and am not making any demands on you.
2) If you made a simple declarative statement, instead of couching your language in conditionals or as tangents to questions, I believed you. I have no reason to not believe you.
3) Why would you care if some random guy on the internet believes you anyhow?

Why should I have to go to a message board trying to prove my ethnicity or my nationality?

You don't.

Why should I have to prove my ethnicity or nationality to have an opinion about something?

Did you have an opinion besides 'I want to talk'?

You sure are making this board feel very welcoming to POC and foreigners with your attitude.

From the guy who says tone doesn't matter?

I never said that no one should tell me to listen, I clearly stated that my stance is "no one should tell anyone to shut up" I'm not against listening, I'm against silencing. You are deliberately twisting my words to fit what you already made up in your mind.

You mean, the way you took "shut up and listen" to mean you were not allowed to talk? Good listening is active listening.

You just read something and you racey sense started tingling so you decided to show that "whiny white American" who's who in this board, the problem is the whiny is not white, nor American.

I fully accept that the whiny is not white nor American.

Now, instead of graciously backpedaling on your stance, you accuse me of lying.

Generally, a statement preceded by an "Maybe ... " in response to one preceded by "If .... " requires no backpedaling.

As a non white, non American person I feel tempted to state that your attitude is very racist and xenophobic itself, but I'm sure it's just a product of you being so full of ****.

Either could be true.

Oh, and I never said that tone doesn't matter in a conversation, i said that tone doesn't change the content of the message. Again, learn to listen, or at least learn to read.

Thank you for the kind advice. I will disagree; tone can absolutely alter the content of a message. I see it in conversations every day.

With all that said, there is still that fact that my responses seem to have hurt your feelings. I apologize that my responses to you did not sufficiently reflect what you intended to convey. In the future, I will be careful to ask you what you actually mean in your responses.

 

[One Brow]

I just read an opinion piece on Sports Illustrated that was a response to Korver's post. Basically, it's someone saying thanks Korver, but what you did isn't enough and where have you been. To me, it's a shot at Korver and it mimics the attitude that many people have online and even on Jazzfanz.

That's not what I got out of the article. In fact, he goes out of his way to say he's not judging Korver:

That said, Kyle is allowed to grow on his own time and at his pace. We’re all ignorant to something at some point, and we can only fix that by attempting to learn and acknowledging where we fall short. As much as I think Korver could have learned these concepts of privilege and structural racism well before he felt inclined to write what he did, I can’t hold judgement against a man who has admitted his shortcomings while asking to be taught even more about the subject.

Yet the standing ovation given when a privileged person points out what’s obvious to so many others still irks me.

 

[Mission Accomplished]

If you guys read the article, you'd see Kyle did offer solutions and a plan of action against racism. The idea that someone isn't the right person to offer solutions is shortsighted. Everyone can offer solutions to fight racism.

What about kneeling for the national anthem?

Sent from my SM-N960U using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[One Brow]

I feel telling me I can go talk in the "safe conservative" thread is saying two things, go away, and it is definitely not a respectful place here to talk about this.

Then I needed to choose my words more carefully. I'm sorry that I made you feel unwelcome. I mean, I haven't even told Alaskan Assassin to shut up; why would I say that to you? I will work at getting better at telling you what I mean (in this case, that I really want you to be able to discuss these issues in a setting where you feel comfortable so doing).

I do not feel every opinion is worthy of a long, lengthy debate. I do think the dismissal of someone or their opinion because we don't see it as valid defeats the whole effort of trying to come together.
There are extreme examples that I'm sure we can both agree on, but I think the line of "valid" is in a different spot for you and for me.
I wouldn't call it "style". I feel that in most cases with you there is back and forth but there is nothing gained. Either you or both are so intent on getting points across that the actual listening to understand is very straw man, or flimsy just to say it was done.

How does going to a group think thread lead to change? How about we find a way to have truly respectful and sincere conversations despite differing opinions?

I think coming together is important, and perhaps I do get too caught up in a back-and-forth.

However, there are also some issues that don't tolerate compromise, and I refuse to compromise on them to come together.

I will work on being less confrontational with you.

 

[Archie Moses]

That's not what I got out of the article. In fact, he goes out of his way to say he's not judging Korver:

I read the article twice now and it's still confusing to me. Basically, the author makes points to support or validate Korver's piece, but then makes points to invalidate or question Korver (or vice versa.) The dude says he's not judging Korver so what's the point of writing his judgements about Korver's piece or Korver himself?

I could be missing the point of the article. I just found a lot of things in it odd.

 

[Archie Moses]

What about kneeling for the national anthem?

Sent from my SM-N960U using JazzFanz mobile app

What about it?

 

[One Brow]

I read the article twice now and it's still confusing to me. Basically, the author makes points to support or validate Korver's piece, but then makes points to invalidate or question Korver (or vice versa.)

I could be missing the point of the article. I just found a lot of things in it odd.

It's a complicated thing. Not that they are largely similar, but perhaps this will offer you some perspective. So some famous Trinitarian preacher (say, Jerry Falwell Jr.) wrote an article about how Mormons were not brainwashed cultists, but normal people following their beliefs, and that they should be treated with the same basic respect as people in any other religion, in particular, don't accuse them all of being polygamists. Would you not feel both "Well, that's right and a nice first step" and "How in the hell did you not realize that years ago?"?

 

[Bawse Dawg]

If white privilege exists, why are Asians the highest earning racial group in the United States? Are they immune to the negative impacts of "White Privilege"?

Did their ancestors come to this country chained to slave ships?

Asswipe

 

[Tak]

Perhaps you are not a native English speaker. When you use the phrase, "if I'm ... ?", you are indicating a hypothetical. In the context of saying that I am making an assumption, in particular, you're saying that I don't know, not making a claim to be something or not be something.



Do it without making it a hypothetical. For example, had you said 'since if I'm not white nor American', that would have been a clear claim. Maybe it's a translation issue. At any rate, I see you made a clear claim below, so I accept that you are not white and not American.



1) I don't really care, and am not making any demands on you.
2) If you made a simple declarative statement, instead of couching your language in conditionals or as tangents to questions, I believed you. I have no reason to not believe you.
3) Why would you care if some random guy on the internet believes you anyhow?



You don't.



Did you have an opinion besides 'I want to talk'?



From the guy who says tone doesn't matter?



You mean, the way you took "shut up and listen" to mean you were not allowed to talk? Good listening is active listening.



I fully accept that the whiny is not white nor American.



Generally, a statement preceded by an "Maybe ... " in response to one preceded by "If .... " requires no backpedaling.



Either could be true.



Thank you for the kind advice. I will disagree; tone can absolutely alter the content of a message. I see it in conversations every day.

With all that said, there is still that fact that my responses seem to have hurt your feelings. I apologize that my responses to you did not sufficiently reflect what you intended to convey. In the future, I will be careful to ask you what you actually mean in your responses.

Now you accept that I'm not white but keep lecturing me in a patronizing way? You are only making yourself look bad, the problem is you are so high up there you can't see it. As Jordan said... get some help.