Privileged by Kyle Korver

[LogGrad98]

That seems to be natural, instinctual even since people have been saying the same thing forever. Books have been written about it. I remember an SKA post on it way back when, about how they used to have fistfights in the halls of Congress and even on the House floor. There's the famous duel, and of course the Civil War being the height of division. We were divided over fighting WWII, and on and on. Division in debate always has been and always will be, and all these calls for the need to come together are only empty lip service, bemoaning the process. We talk about and praise uniting leaders and the neverending need for another, but in my view they are a product of culmination rather than the other way around.

But in the end the way we see division is a feeling, and we cant argue against how someone feels.

Voting records and such seem to show an increasing divide.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...-1970s-and-has-been-getting-worse-ever-since/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.bu...ongress-house-representatives-60-years-2016-4

 

[fishonjazz]

That seems to be natural, instinctual even since people have been saying the same thing forever. Books have been written about it. I remember an SKA post on it way back when, about how they used to have fistfights in the halls of Congress and even on the House floor. There's the famous duel, and of course the Civil War being the height of division. We were divided over fighting WWII, and on and on. Division in debate always has been and always will be, and all these calls for the need to come together are only empty lip service, bemoaning the process. We talk about and praise uniting leaders and the neverending need for another, but in my view they are a product of culmination rather than the other way around.

But in the end the way we see division is a feeling, and we cant argue against how someone feels.

Probably has something to do with the presence of media in todays society, especially social media.


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[fishonjazz]

Voting records and such seem to show an increasing divide.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...-1970s-and-has-been-getting-worse-ever-since/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.bu...ongress-house-representatives-60-years-2016-4

That second link is eye opening. Everyone should watch it.


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[idestroyedthetoilet]

Voting records and such seem to show an increasing divide.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...-1970s-and-has-been-getting-worse-ever-since/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.bu...ongress-house-representatives-60-years-2016-4

I don5 doubt that congressional divide has widened recently. I posted some stuff about blue dogs being devoured back around the mid-terms but it was ignored.

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

More on that 2nd video, I wonder if @Jazz Spazz and some others still think I'm an idiot with no morals because I believe in voting opposite of my natural tendency to help bring moderation to party polarization.

 

[Hedda Gambler]

Being born and raised in Norway, it is impossible for me to comprehend the race issues you guys face. I can try to understand it logically, but will never be able to feel it. As a 42 year old white man who has spent a lot of time in the US and being way more than moderately interested in your society, I can relate to other parts of Korver`s story, though. The opting out part seems very spot on to me. With you talk radio, Fox News and the rise of the internet and social media, way too many Americans have opted out of listening to opposing views. Rupert Murdoch made a fantastic business move with the way he created Fox News. For society though, it has been really, really bad. I might be wrong on this, but it seems to me like Americans in general take the easy way out and only listen to outlets that agree with their political views. This is very, very dangerous and is a recipe for disaster in the long run.

For those of you not agreeing on the tone of this debate and want to seek consensus, I think you are wrong. On cases like these, there is no consensus to be reached. The way to address these problems is for people to start educating themselves. I read Redstate and Breitbart not because I agree with the content, but because I think it is important to know how these people think. The "dialogue" today is more often about trying to make fun of the other side than actually discussing issues. If people could find a way to care more about issues than who is delivering the message, it would be a giant step forward. Unfortunately, I don`t see it happening in this climate.

 

[Stars Fan]

Being born and raised in Norway, it is impossible for me to comprehend the race issues you guys face. I can try to understand it logically, but will never be able to feel it. As a 42 year old white man who has spent a lot of time in the US and being way more than moderately interested in your society, I can relate to other parts of Korver`s story, though. The opting out part seems very spot on to me. With you talk radio, Fox News and the rise of the internet and social media, way too many Americans have opted out of listening to opposing views. Rupert Murdoch made a fantastic business move with the way he created Fox News. For society though, it has been really, really bad. I might be wrong on this, but it seems to me like Americans in general take the easy way out and only listen to outlets that agree with their political views. This is very, very dangerous and is a recipe for disaster in the long run.

For those of you not agreeing on the tone of this debate and want to seek consensus, I think you are wrong. On cases like these, there is no consensus to be reached. The way to address these problems is for people to start educating themselves. I read Redstate and Breitbart not because I agree with the content, but because I think it is important to know how these people think. The "dialogue" today is more often about trying to make fun of the other side than actually discussing issues. If people could find a way to care more about issues than who is delivering the message, it would be a giant step forward. Unfortunately, I don`t see it happening in this climate.

. I might be wrong on this, but it seems to me like Americans in general take the easy way out and only listen to outlets that agree with their political views.

This is true for me for the most part. I try to watch Fox news, and listen to Rush and other righty radio guys, but I can't take it for long. Their distortion of reality physically hurts. It might be a form of cognitive dissonance, but it truly hurts to listen to. I try to inure myself through exposure, but so far ... no dice.

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[Jazz Spazz]

More on that 2nd video, I wonder if @Jazz Spazz and some others still think I'm an idiot with no morals because I believe in voting opposite of my natural tendency to help bring moderation to party polarization.

Lol, nice try. No clue what you are talking about. I don't remember ever thinking you are an idiot with no morals for any reason.
Care to elaborate? Is this a troll job or something you have been thinking for a while?

 

[One Brow]

Usually, you might have a point. However, the stock market spiked and has stayed high once he won the election.

I thought we were talking about the economy. The stock market often swings opposite the economy. They are not closely connected.

People can try to give credit to Obama all they want, but regardless, he is the only 8 year President ever without at least one year of 2% growth. So he came into a wrecked economy and pretty much never fixed it.

He's also the only 8-year President without a recession during the mid-to-latter part of, or immediately after, his term. Instead of economic swings, we saw slow, steady growth. I'm not sure why you think that is a bad thing.

 

[firegirl]

You don't believe that rap is part of the problem?

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NO. It's not.

 

[One Brow]

First off, is your avatar a Catan board with a sword through it? Thanks for the dialogue.

With a d20 as well. It was designed by a gamer for the Metro East Gamers site, but they have stopped using it.

Admittedly, I should do more reading of other intellectuals on matters or race, social economics, etc. However, I wouldn't characterize Sowell's work as descriptions of his own experiences. Anecdotal examples are not what he's using to make his arguments. He's a Senior Fellow at Stanford's Hoover Institute. I've only read one of his books, but it was based almost entirely on research performed. I'm not sure calling his work "Standard Right Wing" is accurate either, as his teachings are much more classic liberal or libertarian.

OK. Most of what I saw were newspaper columns, which are possibly more anecdotal by design.

That's not my understanding of equity, that's how I would describe equality. Equity would be forcing an equality of outcome, as opposed to equality of opportunity. We can't legislate or force our way to provide an equal outcome in life for everyone or every subset of the American people.

Let's look at a couple of specific examples. Two students both taking the SATs, both neurotypical. One of them was raised middle-class in a safe neighborhood, well-fed, and with well-funded schools. The other was raised in poverty, in an unsafe neighborhood, facing food scarcity, and poorly funded schools. However, they are now taking the same test and will be graded the same way. Is this equality to you (I know some people who would say it is, including Sowell, AFAICT)? For me, equity would be that we help the second child live in a better neighborhood, eat better, and fund their schools. Then, we can see them better fulfill their potential on the test.

Second example. Two students taking the SATs raised in similar environments, one of them has severe dyslexia. The student with dyslexia has a person who helps them read the questions and answers on the test, but does not help them decide the correct answer. That's what I think of as equity. Would that be your word?

For me, equity is removing the disadvantages (or compensating for them) that come with being raised poor, being black, etc. Since I think humans are basically the same, I see equity as achieving equality of outcomes not because we force the end result, but because we even out the starting positions. There will still be janitors and doctors, and doctors will still earn more.

 

[firegirl]

Dont dodge the question. The extreme example was to demonstrate that things arent equal. I could post a white guy with no arms but has legs up against a Royce O'neal and that example is extreme still, but not as much. So the spread is smaller. Where does it meet or where does the white privilege kick in?

What the hell does white privilege even mean if the guy with no arms and no legs doesnt even have it, and he is white?

Who has white privilege? All white people? Some white people? A few white people?

I say its a few white people. And i say there is black privilege too. See Jussie Smollett. Thats proof. You can choose to ignore if you want.

Here’s the difference. My white neighbor in South Jordan adopted two black kids. After many bad experiences, they now have a rule that his teenage boy can never, I repeat NEVER wear a hoodie over his head. Doesn’t matter time of day or where he’s at. This is an upstanding good kid, and yet they know that he gets treated differently simply because he’s black. They’re not mad about it. They don’t go around saying, woe is me. It’s just a fact of their life. Which to me, is incredibly sad.

This is what white privilege is. I never once even thought to tell my teenager to not where a hood over his head. He’s white.