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Rational CoViD-19 Discussion Thread: Science vs. Politics

In the current obsevations….. anecdotal and observational.... not just the initial attempts at rigorous scientific studies.....

I hear reports that Covid in the alveoli generates a severe cytokine storm, and many of the deaths come from toxemia or infections spreading to vital organs. It also produces severe scarring in the lungs for survivors and lifetime effects in lung function, often requiring oxygen therapies.... you know, the little green tanks on wheels and the plastic tubing patients have to take with them whenever they go anywhere.

HCQ is thought to help in antiviral host defense via Zn transport, and some prescriptive regimens include zinc supplements. Antibiotics are also being used to help, but now I'm hearing that HCQ directly suppresses the cytokine storm itself.... though how that is seen I can't imagine. Just stopping the viral replication would soon do that....

At any rate, the anecdotal claim is that the virus is stopped, and in about six days is no longer on the scene. Chasing down the infections and repairing the damage done to vital organs is going to take a bit more. And given that many presenting patients with Covid are elderly, with weakened status on various fronts, it is clear that healing will not be 100%
 
babe said:
Well, I hope you never do. But from what is known, based on millions of courses of HCQ used for malaria and some other less frequent human maladies like Lupus, if you believe this is a significant concern, you are believing lies, like I said before, whatever your claimed sources.

I was glad to see the extent of HCQ prescriptions for Covid diagnosed patients because it is saving millions of lives.
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Define "significant" here. Since HCQ is saving no lives for COVID-related conditions, any incidence above 0 is significant in my view.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/hydroxychloroquine-oral-route/side-effects/drg-20064216

Incidence not known
  1. Blistering, peeling, loosening of the skin
  2. blurred vision or other vision changes
  3. chest discomfort, pain, or tightness
  4. cough or hoarseness
  5. dark urine
  6. decreased urination
  7. defective color vision
  8. diarrhea
  9. difficulty breathing
  10. difficulty seeing at night
  11. dizziness or fainting
  12. fast, pounding, uneven heartbeat
  13. feeling that others are watching you or controlling your behavior
  14. feeling that others can hear your thoughts
  15. feeling, seeing, or hearing things that are not there
  16. fever with or without chills
  17. general feeling of tiredness or weakness
  18. headache
  19. inability to move the eyes
  20. increased blinking or spasms of the eyelid
  21. joint or muscle pain
  22. large, hive-like swelling on the face, eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands, legs, feet, and sex organs
  23. loss of hearing
  24. lower back or side pain
  25. noisy breathing
  26. painful or difficult urination
  27. red irritated eyes
  28. red skin lesions, often with a purple center
  29. severe mood or mental changes
  30. sore throat sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
  31. sticking out of the tongue
  32. stomach pain
  33. swelling of the feet or lower legs
  34. swollen or painful glands
  35. trouble with breathing, speaking, or swallowing
  36. uncontrolled twisting movements of the neck, trunk, arms, or legs
  37. unusual behavior
  38. unusual bleeding or bruising
  39. unusual facial expressions
  40. unusual tiredness or weakness
  41. yellow eyes or skin
 
infection said:
Retinopathy is a result of chronic use. Cardiac complications is a result of QT prolongation, which can predispose to certain arrhythmias, but can be monitored via telemetry in the hospital and, again, a decision that a practicing physician should make.
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When the benefit is 0, how does that risk/benefit ratio look to you?
 
babe said:
The fact is, he is aware of his professional political environment, and he is daring.... perhaps risking his career.... to give it "cautious" positive remarks.

What can drive such politics? You need to think about that.
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You mean, a President who only wants to hear enthusiastic positive remarks? If politics are driving this opinion at all, it's toward being positive about HCQ.
 
babe said:
But for anyone to serious say HCQ is not antiviral...… I think that is profound ignorance and determined stupidity at best, a willful intent to deny the obvious. So I think, in all fairness, with regard for any journalist or reporter or news media player who will take such a stand, the proper diagnosis is they are determined, purposeful liars.
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Three papers on a grand total of 3 patients. If you look at enough case studies, you can make a similar claim for any substance and any disease.
 
One Brow said:
You mean, a President who only wants to hear enthusiastic positive remarks? If politics are driving this opinion at all, it's toward being positive about HCQ.
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If you were talking about Sean Hannity, maybe you'd have a point. What I've heard the Pres say is less than that level of enthusiasm, but still very much at odds with CNN reportage.

But I was assessing the political imperatives that laced the "objective" or "balanced" opinion in the article I posted above, which drove the author to limit his assessment to "cautious" positive opinion.

If there were no claims of absolute "cure", being made, a scientific study that shows, in a six day trial, the elimination of the virus from the patient in 90% of patients being calling "hopeful" would pretty well match Trump's "enthusiasm".

It is just "prudent" to use this "hopeful" prescription. Unless you have a direct contraindication on a specific patient.
 
babe said:
If there were no claims of absolute "cure", being made, a scientific study that shows, in a six day trial, the elimination of the virus from the patient in 90% of patients being calling "hopeful" would pretty well match Trump's "enthusiasm".
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While the later, more rigorous study was negative.
 
One Brow said:
Define "significant" here. Since HCQ is saving no lives for COVID-related conditions, any incidence above 0 is significant in my view.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/hydroxychloroquine-oral-route/side-effects/drg-20064216

This reply is as obtuse as it is irrelevant. Here, the Mayo Clinic, known by the medical establishment to be one of the pillars of conventional medicine and the whole FDA/AMA/Big Pharma/Big Medical nexus of corruption and a bulwark against every creative instinct of the human species, gives a list of generic side effects to be looked for, with absolutely no reportage about actual complaints relevant to this specific drug.

Ya got nuthin here, bud.
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