See ya, Corbin.

[NUMBERICA]

For those that are proclaiming Lindsey is the best GM in the league, or that he has proven that he is a top GM, what exactly has he done so far?

He traded up for Burke, and passed on MCW.

Shut up. Just shut the **** up. Please.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Things are trending in the right direction, but that doesn't mean its a sure thing.

Just finished the rest of your post. Just incredible insight, dawg.

 

[b_line]

For those that are proclaiming Lindsey is the best GM in the league, or that he has proven that he is a top GM, what exactly has he done so far?

He traded up for Burke, and passed on MCW. Burke might be great, he might be a bust.
He did go get Gobert, which looks good on paper, but so far, Gobert is a long term project. He might be good, he might be a bust.
He did get the GS picks for their garbage, but what happens if GS blows up and the picks are late 20's? Then eh.
KOC set the roster up to tank for this year, Lindsey has gone through with that plan.

So, thus far, Lindsey is like every other player we have completely over-hyped when they were playing 10 mins a night. He have no IDEA what he will turn out like as a GM. So far, everything looks promising, but what happens if Burke is a bust, the draft pick next year is a bust, he gives Hayward a max and he become AK or he doesn't give Hayward money and he becomes Paul George? Lindsey hasn't really done much at all yet.

I'm still at a wait and see on 90% of the Jazz so far. Things are trending in the right direction, but that doesn't mean its a sure thing.

MCW could still be a bust. Remember when people were declaring Jennings to be the next Iverson? Jennings pretty much sucks right now. MCW could be great, but looked really ****ty in college, and could return to looking ****ty.

 

[fallenchicken]

Hornacek also has a very motivated, highly talented point guard to work with.

Yeah, well... Ty has John Lucas.

 

[Dr. Jones]

DL is the best GM in the league. He's hungry and I think he can play SF.

 

[mhindy]

DL is the best GM in the league. He's hungry and I think he can play SF.

He also looks kind of like Clint Eastwood.

#mainman

 

[NUMBERICA]

I think he can play SF.

The rallying cry of many idiots.

 

[BTP]

If Ty is fired mid-season, then we'll have Jerry again.

That would be a good interim solution if it's well communicated that he's only filling in.

BTW, everyone using the argument that Corbin can't coach because the team isn't playing as a group is also indicting Dennis Lindsey and The Tank for not putting sufficient talent around Favors-Kanter-Burks-Hayward to play as a group.

Kind of self defeating IMO

Just look at Phoenix, Philly, Boston. I'd say all those teams have less talent on their roster than the top Jazz guys. Suddenly a wild Plumlee appears, Green can jump again, the Morris bust twins are playing well, Bledsoe has the questioned breakout season.
Philly has literally 3 players and 1 rook on their team. Hawes is returning from the grave, Turner wants a contract and get traded and is playing like crazy, Thad Young is just solid. Wroten doesn't wanna fall out of the league and MCW has really worked hard this summer.
Boston is looking horrible and you definately don't wanna watch a game of them but they win. Getting production out of differnt guys on different nights. Coaching impact?

DL's track record isn't great right now. There's all this talk on broadcasts about how he's always busy working the phones, yet he hasn't really accomplished much. He held onto the Jazz's best players last season, let them walk in free agency, then traded the Jazz's in-season cap flexibility for a couple late 1st round picks. He "solved" the issues at the 1 by signing JLIII and Jamaal Tinsley, before nabbing a dude from the dleague. For all we know, DL is huffing glue and playing with himself all day.

Search the board and you'll find many takes on that. Most likely ownership didn't find it financially sustainable to tank twice in a row. Now they tank the necessary season for the crazy draft and if you draft guys like Wiggins, Parker, Randle people will fill the arena. They wanna witness that from day 1. When was last time Utah had a superstar? Yeah more than a decade ago...
So the rebuild will be financially solid.

Another problem if you fire Ty is this:

You have to now pay Ty and the new coach. And no new coach is going to accept the "intern" title this early in the season. They will want the job. Which means another 2-3 year deal for that coach. Now, what happens if you get Parker and Coach K says that Jabari is such a special talent, that he wants to continue coaching him. Are you going to say no to Coach K? Or Phil Jackson? Long shots, I know, but it could happen. Now you have to fire the coach you just hired, and pay him, and pay the new guy.

I makes ZERO sense to fire Ty now. ZERO. There is not one good reason to do so. Ok, maybe one or two good reasons, but those aren't enough to combat the 50 bad reasons to fire Ty.

Thing is that if he's 1-20 he MUST get fired. If you don't change it will send a signal to players that winning isn't priority, development neither and that FO doesn't care. So players stop caring and start developing a Milwaukee locker room. You don't want that. You have to get a coach that can motivate them to improve day to day. That's the key: day by day approach. This way the team will win occasionally. And with 1-20 if they win 33% from that point, they'll still end the season 21-61 for a solid last place tied with none. So basically all Ty had to do was win every second home game overpowering teams doing back to backs on high altitude. That's not rocket science.

For those that are proclaiming Lindsey is the best GM in the league, or that he has proven that he is a top GM, what exactly has he done so far?

He traded up for Burke, and passed on MCW. Burke might be great, he might be a bust.
He did go get Gobert, which looks good on paper, but so far, Gobert is a long term project. He might be good, he might be a bust.
He did get the GS picks for their garbage, but what happens if GS blows up and the picks are late 20's? Then eh.
KOC set the roster up to tank for this year, Lindsey has gone through with that plan.

So, thus far, Lindsey is like every other player we have completely over-hyped when they were playing 10 mins a night. He have no IDEA what he will turn out like as a GM. So far, everything looks promising, but what happens if Burke is a bust, the draft pick next year is a bust, he gives Hayward a max and he become AK or he doesn't give Hayward money and he becomes Paul George? Lindsey hasn't really done much at all yet.

I'm still at a wait and see on 90% of the Jazz so far. Things are trending in the right direction, but that doesn't mean its a sure thing.

So MCW played for Syracuse, none knew if his defense would translate in any way. During summer league both his handles and defense were horrible. Everyone knew he was a good kid and really hard worker, but many doubted he could do it talent wise. If you take him very early he's bad value high risk high return. In the teens he was low risk high return.
Warrior players have durability issues for years. Now let them play into June a couple of seasons and diminish their break period during summer where they regenerate. Yeah that makes it even more likely that they might have a down year due to injuries.
Actually by everything that was published about the Gordon Hayward contract talks, he wasn't willing to overpay him. Why would he do that next season? Even if he walks for nothing because someone outbids the Jazz, they'll get another pick in 2015 that's more than solid since superstars figuring out the league often go hand in hand with losing while looking pretty sometimes.
So the Jazz would have the opportunity to attack a restricted themself or attack free agents with the prospect of playing next to the twin peaks and a growing league icon. Losing overpaid restricted guys is only painful if you're sitting at the cap with no options, no plan b.

MCW could still be a bust. Remember when people were declaring Jennings to be the next Iverson? Jennings pretty much sucks right now. MCW could be great, but looked really ****ty in college, and could return to looking ****ty.

Yeah could very well be, but Jennings tbh is looking kinda good in Detroit. The guy who screwed that team was their owner Gores saying: Hey Dumars, we make the playoffs or you're gone!(retard not realizing at which rebuild stage they are)
And Dumars being well Dumars getts the worst possible addition for their squad that doesn't help them win.
But ask yourself do you want Jennings or Knight

 

[GVC]

Thing is that if he's 1-20 he MUST get fired.

What if the team plays like **** under the replacement? You can't fire 2 coaches in 1 season, right? I'd be surprised if Ty is cut loose that quickly, even if the solution is to bring in an interim coach.

Yeah could very well be, but Jennings tbh is looking kinda good in Detroit.

Really? I haven't watched Detroit this year, but based on his high usage, low shooting percentages, and the team's on-court/off-court performance, it's hard to see how he isn't the same ball stopping, no defense idiot he's always been. Your team's offense shouldn't be THAT much better with your "looking kinda good" starting point guard on the bench (*although he did miss the first 3 games of the season, which were against weaker opponents than the last 6...).

 

[franklin]

I disagree with this. I guess InGameStrategy is a goner, but I definitely don't remember the people who hated Sloan, hating Tyrone Corbin right from the get-go.

I could bump old threads from two weeks into Corbin's career where posters were already calling for Corbin's head for things they wanted Sloan fired for, but I don't see the point.

We all know it boils down to a coach playing a fan's favorite or not. Fans are bad judges of talent and conveniently ignore statistics.

Hornacek seems to be doing immensely more with immensely less, so I'm inclined to disagree. Maybe Hornacek is the next all-time great, which would just be, you know, ****ing great.

FWIW, Hornacek's offense hasn't looked all that spectacular to me, but he has two guards in Bledsoe and Dragic who are very good at breaking down defenses and executing, respectively. Bledsoe is in elite TS% territory @ .612. Hornacek is basically running the same stuff as Corbin with better execution from guard play.

 

[BTP]

What if the team plays like **** under the replacement? You can't fire 2 coaches in 1 season, right? I'd be surprised if Ty is cut loose that quickly, even if the solution is to bring in an interim coach.

Really? I haven't watched Detroit this year, but based on his high usage, low shooting percentages, and the team's on-court/off-court performance, it's hard to see how he isn't the same ball stopping, no defense idiot he's always been. Your team's offense shouldn't be THAT much better with your "looking kinda good" starting point guard on the bench.

Team won't play ****. These guys play for COrbin in his 3rd year, the all have set roles under him.
New coach means new opportunity to get a role, to showcase strengths and have them influence the system that's being played.
Hayward is in a contract year, Kanter and Burks are playing for their next contract as well...Marvin does that as well and Jefferson is trying to showcase value to get on a contender on minimum contract. None is quitting, the team is just quitting on Corbin as they/he can't figure ways to win. And management can't quit on their players that's the worst thing that could happen. Replacement from within would only be okay if it meant a change of styles.
And as I said you totally can recruit from outside with 4 year contracts. High profile coaches will be intrigued to have a secured top4 pick in 2014.

Actually as I said Dumars/Gores are the reason. Teams are clogging the paint and Jennings is their only healthy shooter...He's also having a PER of 20 with increased usage, decreased TO ratio, increased assist ratio. What is he supposed to do? He actually was kinda good on their wins and against teams that aren't very good defensively the others simply abused their **** roster composition and gave Jennings 2-20 nights, daring him to shoot difficult shots.

 

[GVC]

Team won't play ****.

The talent on this team is grossly overrated. It's entirely possible they suck hard with a new coach.

Actually as I said Dumars/Gores are the reason. Teams are clogging the paint and Jennings is their only healthy shooter...He's also having a PER of 20 with increased usage, decreased TO ratio, increased assist ratio. What is he supposed to do? He actually was kinda good on their wins and against teams that aren't very good defensively the others simply abused their **** roster composition and gave Jennings 2-20 nights, daring him to shoot difficult shots.

1. PER rewards volume, and largely ignores team play and defense. Jennings' high PER is a result of his relatively low turnovers and ball dominance. That's it (PER is absolute garbage).

2. Like I said, I haven't watched them play, but Jennings has always made a habit of over-dribbling and launching pull up 20-footers, regardless of the time left on the shot clock. Last season, Milwaukee's offense was 4 points per 48 better with Jennings on the bench, which is pretty telling (one would expect a large negative on-court/off-court differential of a starting point guard to be explained by defense not offense). What he should be doing is feeding the post and/or deferring to Josh Smith.

 

[BTP]

The talent on this team is grossly overrated. It's entirely possible they suck hard with a new coach.

1. PER rewards volume, and largely ignores team play and defense. Jennings' high PER is a result of his relatively low turnovers and ball dominance. That's it (PER is absolute garbage).

2. Like I said, I haven't watched them play, but Jennings has always made a habit of over-dribbling and launching pull up 20-footers, regardless of the time left on the shot clock. Last season, Milwaukee's offense was 4 points per 48 better with Jennings on the bench, which is pretty telling (one would expect a large negative on-court/off-court differential of a starting point guard to be explained by defense not offense). What he should be doing is feeding the post and/or deferring to Josh Smith.

PER also rewards PPP and passing. And a 36% assist ratio is strong, as is being careful with the ball.
Thing is he can't feed the post. Monroe has no room at the elbow/high post and Smith can't hit a corner three even if his life depended on it.
I was hopeful before the season he could hit an open one, but nope.
Feeding Monroe in the post btw won't give him assists. His connects are mostly with Drummond on the break or on smaller lineups without 3 bigs, so screen and roll can work.
If you have LP you can watch them vs NYK in 10 min a little. NYK last year and this year had great defensive concepts at times and they'll try to exploit their lack of spacing as hard as possible. They'll maybe even play box+1 to take away the area from midrange to the basket efficiently.

 

[GVC]

PER also rewards PPP and passing.

While scoring more efficiently is rewarded in PER, a player can increase his PER by chucking more, virtually irrespective of the percentage he hits. Take a look at Dave Berri's criticism on PER's wikipedia page (and Hollinger's nonsensical response...FWIW I'm not a WoW guy either).

What does Jennings bring to the table in the halfcourt? Can he shoot it? Score/create off the bounce/in pick and rolls? Does he consistently make the right decision? How is he in transition? Team and man D?

 

[BTP]

I'd say he's worth $8M
We'll see as the season continues. Right now he's not playing early on as he got substituted for illness.

 

[green]

That would be a good interim solution if it's well communicated that he's only filling in.

You can't bring Sloan back as an interm coach. He either is until he quits again or he isn't.

Just look at Phoenix, Philly, Boston. I'd say all those teams have less talent on their roster than the top Jazz guys. Suddenly a wild Plumlee appears, Green can jump again, the Morris bust twins are playing well, Bledsoe has the questioned breakout season.
Philly has literally 3 players and 1 rook on their team. Hawes is returning from the grave, Turner wants a contract and get traded and is playing like crazy, Thad Young is just solid. Wroten doesn't wanna fall out of the league and MCW has really worked hard this summer.
Boston is looking horrible and you definately don't wanna watch a game of them but they win. Getting production out of differnt guys on different nights. Coaching impact?

Absolutely. The Jazz obviously aren't looking for a coach right now. Or they would have fired Ty earlier and hired Horny. Or hired someone else. The Jazz knew Corbin only had one year left, they could pay only one coach, lose, then be free of Corbin.



Search the board and you'll find many takes on that. Most likely ownership didn't find it financially sustainable to tank twice in a row. Now they tank the necessary season for the crazy draft and if you draft guys like Wiggins, Parker, Randle people will fill the arena. They wanna witness that from day 1. When was last time Utah had a superstar? Yeah more than a decade ago...
So the rebuild will be financially solid.

Thing is that if he's 1-20 he MUST get fired. If you don't change it will send a signal to players that winning isn't priority, development neither and that FO doesn't care. So players stop caring and start developing a Milwaukee locker room. You don't want that. You have to get a coach that can motivate them to improve day to day. That's the key: day by day approach. This way the team will win occasionally. And with 1-20 if they win 33% from that point, they'll still end the season 21-61 for a solid last place tied with none. So basically all Ty had to do was win every second home game overpowering teams doing back to backs on high altitude. That's not rocket science.

BUT, winning ISN'T a priority. EVERYONE knows that. We are kidding anyone. We want the #1 pick. If you think anyone/any player/any coach thinks otherwise, you are kidding yourself. A Milwaukee locker room problem? Fine, that player is gone. You could move or cut any Jazz player overnight. Anyways, as this year has shown, none of these players is irreplaceable. They are all nothing by role players.

So MCW played for Syracuse, none knew if his defense would translate in any way. During summer league both his handles and defense were horrible. Everyone knew he was a good kid and really hard worker, but many doubted he could do it talent wise. If you take him very early he's bad value high risk high return. In the teens he was low risk high return.
Warrior players have durability issues for years. Now let them play into June a couple of seasons and diminish their break period during summer where they regenerate. Yeah that makes it even more likely that they might have a down year due to injuries.
Actually by everything that was published about the Gordon Hayward contract talks, he wasn't willing to overpay him. Why would he do that next season? Even if he walks for nothing because someone outbids the Jazz, they'll get another pick in 2015 that's more than solid since superstars figuring out the league often go hand in hand with losing while looking pretty sometimes.
So the Jazz would have the opportunity to attack a restricted themself or attack free agents with the prospect of playing next to the twin peaks and a growing league icon. Losing overpaid restricted guys is only painful if you're sitting at the cap with no options, no plan b.

All players in this last draft had flaws. My point was that Lindsey hasn't proven anything yet. What he is doing looks good on paper. We will see if pans out. BTW, I LOVE what Lindsey is doing. I've been calling for it for the last FOREVER. I'm just saying if I own the Jazz, I'm not giving extensions to Kanter, Hayward and Lindsey...yet. I saw what happened with AK, and I'm going to do what I can to not do that again.

 

[green]

The talent on this team is grossly overrated. It's entirely possible they suck hard with a new coach.

I agree 100% on talent. We have solid talent. Good role players talent. If one thing has been made clear this year, is we don't have any franchise changing players.

No matter who our coach is, we will lose a TON of games this year. We have no PG, no backup big, no go to guy, no reliable three point threat, no one on this team is a lock down defender, no one that can get us a bucket when we need one, etc, etc, etc. Everyone is playing a spot or two higher in the hierarchy than they should be.