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Sorry gun advocates, you'll just have to suck it up

franklin said:
That's not exactly true. In fact, this type of polarizing all-issues-or-none mentality is why those of us in the middle of most issues have no where to vote.

There is a strong argument being made that gun crime in the US is largely a product of southern hick mentality. Basically, a bunch of billy bad asses with pride to protect.



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You've asked for answers to the inner city plight of mainly African Americans. If anyone here really wants to find the answers they will find the leading minds in this area have no clue how to solve the problem. The only sure fire answer is J-O-B-S. I've read a lot of cliche's thrown around in this thread including the family unit, education, etc. None of those work AT ALL without jobs.

Those blaming the break up of the AA family unit are as misguided as they come. AA's had a higher % of traditional family units than Caucasians before the widespread loss of manufacturing jobs in large city centers, and with an inability to follow these jobs to the more rural, cheap land areas. This isn't anything that can be correlated or sourced with a study of course, but the circumstantial evidence is as sound of an argument in support as it gets.

If America wants to put a dent in violence in the USA we need to declare targeted 'war' on Detroit, Chicago, etc. Make jobs. Provide protection. Make more jobs.
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I'm not sure I believe all of this, but I do believe the lack of jobs in large areas could be a large contributing factor. Getting the poorest and most "high risk"(whether that be southern hick billybob, or gangsta T'Andre, or Xavier; dungeon master of narnia, and everything in between) employed and involved in the community would be a huge step toward seeing less shootings and violence in general.

How, exactly, to do that I'm not really sure. But this was a very solid contribution. Thank you, Franklin.
 
Gameface said:
I think step one, in a nation where mostly unfettered access to firearms is the reality, is to have mandatory firearm education taught in schools. Focusing on the safe handling and storage of firearms, outlining state specific rules regarding the legal use of a firearm for self defense, making clear when the use of a firearm does not fall under self defense, and exposing students to the consequences of firearm violence.
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i would literrally lol if that was added.

chrsitians getting meltdown for sex en gender education about gay straight trans bi and all that "confusing stuff"
and liberals having a meltdown about gun ed. hahahahaha
 
tfivas said:
This makes you look stupid lol
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People are talking about banning guns, and you said that although pedophilia is banned, that hasn't solved anything. So the analogy means that pedophilia might as well be legal, just like guns, because making it illegal solves nothing. I know what you're trying to say of course, but I'm still making fun of you because you're incapable of expressing it coherently, yet you still feel the need to butt in.

And it is really adorable that you think YOU can make me look stupid. :)
 
Siro said:
People are talking about banning guns, and you said that although pedophilia is banned, that hasn't solved anything. So the analogy means that pedophilia might as well be legal, just like guns, because making it illegal solves nothing. I know what you're trying to say of course, but I'm still making fun of you because you're incapable of expressing it coherently, yet you still feel the need to butt in.

And it is really adorable that you think YOU can make me look stupid. :)
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Why the big emphasis on "YOU"? :)
 
DutchJazzer said:
why would i blame what a gay homosexual man does with another homosexual gay man. i dont care!
there are no studies yet corelating gay parents and gun violence.

there is a corelation between single parent homes and gun violence doe
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Please outline your entire 'platform.'
 
my outline is saying gunviolence is not the fault of "guns"

there are far more things going on. inner city culture, single parent homes, poverty, inner city drug trade. this problem is far more complex then burning the 2nd amendment.
 
Really, I think there are several different sides to the issue of gun homicide - to the point that it's almost like they are different issues

One aspect - inner city violence, much of it related to the drug trade and gang affiliation; armed robbery probably falls into this category as well. Some of the problems related to poverty and unemployment factor into this type of violence.

Second aspect - the mass shooters such as the Columbine killings, James Holmes, Sandy Hook/Newton CT., the Charleston, SC church killings, etc etc; mental illness probably plays a role here. This typically involves shooting at random people who are not known to the killer

Third aspect - anger and jealousy - I think today's shooting in Roanoke fall into this category, though the shooter may have had some mental illness issues as well, but there are plenty of other homicides that are just simply someone going into a rage and shooting someone they perceive to be a rival or threat. Often times this is someone they know.

I think I had a fourth in mind, but I don't remember what it was.
(edit: I think the fourth one was accidental shootings, but that's an aspect with solutions that would be less directly related to the others)

At any rate, the factors frequently mentioned here as "root causes" , such as poverty, unemployment, unstable families etc. etc. etc. really play a role only in the first aspect. So what might be a way to start looking at solutions for one aspect of the problem (that is, for those who perceive it as a problem) is not going to do anything to resolve the issue of gun violence in those aspects where poverty and unemployment do not have a role - such as a jealous husband who kills his wife; or the angry young man who hates blacks.
 
So, could it be helpful to separate the discussion into the aspects of gun violence?

Part of the "knee-jerk" reaction I think has to do with whatever aspect you feel is the most personally threatening to you. If you don't live in or near an inner city, or have the occasion to pass through regularly, you may be less concerned with that aspect.

Most of us, I think, don't feel particularly personally threatened by any of these situations - - but the random, mass killer is probably the most frightening because it is random. If we don't live in a crime-ridden neighborhood, and don't hang around with angry, jealous gun-owning friends, we aren't really going to feel that those are real threats to us. But that one type, the random crazy person with a gun, well, you just can't predict where the next one is going to happen, so it's the most frightening. Hence, we want to fix the blame on mental illness, and decide that we need better resources to help those who suffer from it.
 
moevillini said:
Really, I think there are several different sides to the issue of gun homicide - to the point that it's almost like they are different issues

One aspect - inner city violence, much of it related to the drug trade and gang affiliation; armed robbery probably falls into this category as well. Some of the problems related to poverty and unemployment factor into this type of violence.

Second aspect - the mass shooters such as the Columbine killings, James Holmes, Sandy Hook/Newton CT., the Charleston, SC church killings, etc etc; mental illness probably plays a role here. This typically involves shooting at random people who are not known to the killer

Third aspect - anger and jealousy - I think today's shooting in Roanoke fall into this category, though the shooter may have had some mental illness issues as well, but there are plenty of other homicides that are just simply someone going into a rage and shooting someone they perceive to be a rival or threat. Often times this is someone they know.

I think I had a fourth in mind, but I don't remember what it was.
(edit: I think the fourth one was accidental shootings, but that's an aspect with solutions that would be less directly related to the others)

At any rate, the factors frequently mentioned here as "root causes" , such as poverty, unemployment, unstable families etc. etc. etc. really play a role only in the first aspect. So what might be a way to start looking at solutions for one aspect of the problem (that is, for those who perceive it as a problem) is not going to do anything to resolve the issue of gun violence in those aspects where poverty and unemployment do not have a role - such as a jealous husband who kills his wife; or the angry young man who hates blacks.
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Right. But EVERY one of those, having LESS guns available would mean LESS people shot. Period. End of story.

We can discuss how effective any means of getting the guns out of people's hands would be, and whether we should or not, or whether we legally CAN or not, but...
 
gandalfe said:
Right. But EVERY one of those, having LESS guns available would mean LESS people shot. Period. End of story.

We can discuss how effective any means of getting the guns out of people's hands would be, and whether we should or not, or whether we legally CAN or not, but...
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nope.
there where less guns in the theater shooting then at a gun show.

you know what is readily available in mass shooting disarmed victims!!!


less victims less people shot
 
DutchJazzer said:
nope.
there where less guns in the theater shooting then at a gun show.

you know what is readily available in mass shooting disarmed victims!!!


less victims less people shot
Click to expand...

I know it's going to take all of your brain power to go over this, but bear with me, and follow point to point.

The problem isn't guns are available.
The problem is violence among ourselves, with multiple reasons for violence.
We're not going to stop all violent acts.. likely ever. We'll likely be able to slow it greatly, but never completely get rid of it.
We CAN make those violent acts less violent by limiting who has guns, how many, and what type they have.

What part of that can't you grasp?
 
moevillini said:
Really, I think there are several different sides to the issue of gun homicide - to the point that it's almost like they are different issues

One aspect - inner city violence, much of it related to the drug trade and gang affiliation; armed robbery probably falls into this category as well. Some of the problems related to poverty and unemployment factor into this type of violence.

Second aspect - the mass shooters such as the Columbine killings, James Holmes, Sandy Hook/Newton CT., the Charleston, SC church killings, etc etc; mental illness probably plays a role here. This typically involves shooting at random people who are not known to the killer

Third aspect - anger and jealousy - I think today's shooting in Roanoke fall into this category, though the shooter may have had some mental illness issues as well, but there are plenty of other homicides that are just simply someone going into a rage and shooting someone they perceive to be a rival or threat. Often times this is someone they know.

I think I had a fourth in mind, but I don't remember what it was.
(edit: I think the fourth one was accidental shootings, but that's an aspect with solutions that would be less directly related to the others)

At any rate, the factors frequently mentioned here as "root causes" , such as poverty, unemployment, unstable families etc. etc. etc. really play a role only in the first aspect. So what might be a way to start looking at solutions for one aspect of the problem (that is, for those who perceive it as a problem) is not going to do anything to resolve the issue of gun violence in those aspects where poverty and unemployment do not have a role - such as a jealous husband who kills his wife; or the angry young man who hates blacks.
Click to expand...

moevillini said:
So, could it be helpful to separate the discussion into the aspects of gun violence?

Part of the "knee-jerk" reaction I think has to do with whatever aspect you feel is the most personally threatening to you. If you don't live in or near an inner city, or have the occasion to pass through regularly, you may be less concerned with that aspect.

Most of us, I think, don't feel particularly personally threatened by any of these situations - - but the random, mass killer is probably the most frightening because it is random. If we don't live in a crime-ridden neighborhood, and don't hang around with angry, jealous gun-owning friends, we aren't really going to feel that those are real threats to us. But that one type, the random crazy person with a gun, well, you just can't predict where the next one is going to happen, so it's the most frightening. Hence, we want to fix the blame on mental illness, and decide that we need better resources to help those who suffer from it.
Click to expand...

Of course the only female poster on Jazzfanz turns out to be the smartest poster here. Go figure.
 
ElRoach0 said:
I know it's going to take all of your brain power to go over this, but bear with me, and follow point to point.

The problem isn't guns are available.
The problem is violence among ourselves, with multiple reasons for violence.
We're not going to stop all violent acts.. likely ever. We'll likely be able to slow it greatly, but never completely get rid of it.
We CAN make those violent acts less violent by limiting who has guns, how many, and what type they have.

What part of that can't you grasp?
Click to expand...
what part of all mass shootings HAPPENED IN A GUN FREE ZONE!!!!!!!!!!! ALL OF THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


edit: Correction all SUCCESFULL MASS SHOOTINGS HAPPENED IN A GUN FREE ZONE
 
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