The alt-right and the epistemological catastrophe.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Alfalfa, Jan 7, 2019.

  1. lauriandres

    lauriandres Well-Known Member

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    Of course, if he is name is actually a la Ivan Smirnov, speaks fluent russian, has Putin's portrait in the living room etc :). But it is still eye roll - i am not transfering to some kind of KKK wannabe.
    If he desires so, then so be it. However, i would have my suspicions :). Of course, it is not black and white situation.
    Your eyes would not roll, if some of your close relative would state that he/she is not anymore American but Chinese person (assuming that you and your ancestors are white and have lived in the USA already several centuries)?
     

  2. lauriandres

    lauriandres Well-Known Member

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    How to you enforce the laws without somewhat aggressive force (whether by mental things or by guns), if there are only about 1 million estonians and (hypothetically) 10 million arabs? We already got about 400000 russians and others from Soviet Union and the integration has not been as rosy as you might think.
    Is it possible to put an english speaking child in a US based Chinatown or El Paso kinderkarten (assuming it is the closest to your home)? I have not been in USA at all so maybe my assumption is wrong that in those areas it is hard to live if you do not speak either chinese or spanish.
     
  3. babe

    babe Well-Known Member

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    I studied Russian lit and language in the late 1970s a little, loved Gogol's book "Dead Souls", loved Dostoyevsky and Solzhenitsyn. At that time I would've thought you were "Russian" in a little ethnic province with hardly anyone still speaking "Estonian" or whatever.

    How on earth are you not already just German or Polish???? Let alone "Russian".

    American native bands of "Indians",as Europeans labeled them, were complex associations of "nations" with allies and enemies enough to confuse anyone. Some were impressively civilized.... The Cherokee, the Iroquois et al, the Alongquin… , not to mention the great civilizations of Mexico and Peru..... several epochs are known to have come and gone before the Europeans. There were people here 50,000 years ago.

    sea-faring folks evidently fishing in the deep Pacific camped on offshore islands from Chile to Japan circa 15000 years ago, some folks came from Africa to Brazil 30,000 years ago. Camps of the Clovis,NM style across Texas to California 12,000 years ago.

    Vikings and Phoenicians traded across the Atlantic, left settlement remains and genetic remnants...…

    It is a wonder there is not a more complex prehistory for Europe...…

    And the only way any ethnic group has survived very long is by excluding "foreigners" from "polite society".....

    The pseudo-intellectual "neomarxists" who like to prattle or complain about some theoretical but undefined "alt-right" are totalitarian bozos who want to re-shape the world in their own way, with whatever tools they can muster to the project.

    They hate people who don't agree with their ideas the way they imagine people must hate people with other skin color.... for no reason at all. But there is always a simple reason for hate. humans always hate what they don't include in the "us" group or "our" way. But why? It's how we take power.

    The disenfranchised will always wail when out of power.

    But if people let the "modernists" as they style themselves take or keep power, they will return civilization to the feudal era of Lords and serfs, royals and slaves. People like Jonah are perhaps more likely to use power with some discretion, because of actual intelligence, but there are as many "Dutches" in their ranks as in the ranks of "conservatives". Lots of people love their own ways without much reflection, or much balance. But, really Dutch is pretty smart. Not an American, mind you, but someone who has seen the actual realities of socialism in raw power. So he chooses to speak plainly. And wow does it smart for the royal arses of the Brave New World.

    The reason why "progressives" or "globalists" are ultimately regressive intellects is just this. They reject the great step forward made with the idea of limiting government power and protecting individual rights.

    Every crisis.... global warming, coming ice age, whatever..... overpopulation.... environment.... seems to require government force first rather than education. A return to the tools and skills of centuries gone by, rather than a step forward to new technology intended to benefit everyone. And no, AI is not for everyone. It is the path to forced reductions in population numbers, from 7.6 B to less than 1 B as some would have it. Well, it doesn't need to be, but as things are in the minds of our "great modernist leaders", that's what it will be used for.

    Amazing to me, how "progressives" see the solution to environmental issues as a return to the King's Forest.... with their elitist mansions hidden in the woods and people run off the land. That was England circa 1300. Russia circa 1600. Let the poor fight the bears with sticks and rocks.....

    Real human progress requires increased populations, better technologies, real education not just Dewey "train to the task" slavery. We have planets within a hundred light years. We need stations on the Moon, Mars, the Asteroids. The Moon is a titanium mine, plus lots of aluminum and magnesium. That's a better place to build long-range space modules you could put a small town on..... and only a few generations to new inhabitable earths...

    Forward means we do more with what we have, use more resources....recycle everything....actively manage forests and oceans, and go out into space.

    People will do all that if we just stop the guvmint from stopping us.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  4. fishonjazz

    fishonjazz Well-Known Member Contributor 2018 Award Winner

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    The answer to your question is quite simple really. They are simpletons. I mean look at hack.
     
  5. One Brow

    One Brow Well-Known Member

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    It's difficult for me to respond to that, since currently there seem to be less than 2,000 Muslims in Estonia, and not all of them are Arabs. Under the current conditions, I would say you enforce the laws fairly. I appreciate that Estonia's history as a former Soviet Republic, and the attempts to Russify Estonia during that period, have made the Estonian identity very important to you. I say again that the best assimilation is to bring the children into your culture.

    My home is St. Louis, pretty much the middle of the country. Chinatown is in part a tourist destination (at least part of it in New York), there are no problems with speaking English there. The children in Chinatown went to schools that required classes in English spelling, grammar, literature, etc., and have grown up speaking fluent English. This also applies to the children of Hispanic immigrants in El Paso.
     
  6. One Brow

    One Brow Well-Known Member

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    Chinese history is a strong rebuttal over multiple changes in the identities of the elites. Many other nations (Japan, India, etc.) retained their cultural identities through such changes.
     
  7. Red

    Red Well-Known Member

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    How often did people troll before the advent of the internet? I'm not sure where I would have looked to even find anything that could be described as trolling. If I look at the readers comment section of a news article or opinion piece, I will always find respondents trolling in concordance with whatever the political slant/agenda was reflected in the article or opinion piece. If the article pummels liberals, for instance, I can expect many trolling comments highlighting "libtards".

    At his rallies, Trump trolls his political opponents every time. The response from his auduance is both cheers and laughter. His rally goers enjoy his trolling, and they carry signs and wear clothing with trollish messaging. They enjoy trolling.

    My point is this: the internet, be it forums whenever political topics are raised, be it the comment section of politically charged articles, or be it transferred to the live venue of rallies, has encouraged this development, which amounts to emotional immaturity ascending to our principle way of conducting political dialog. I believe not only has the internet aided in the dumbing down of our society through the spread of bizarre conspiracy theories, it has also encouraged the immaturity in people to reach a peak not seen before the advent of the internet.

    This does not absolve people from the need to own their words, to assume responsibility for stooping to trolling as the level of political comments they are most comfortable with. But we should at least start with acknowledging that that is exactly what is happening. Our own human nature is a complex thing. Diving headlong into the lowest common denominator of national dialog reflects how easy it is for some of us, maybe most of us, to prefer pettiness and immaturity to reasoned debate that acknowledges the humanity of those we disagree with. Trolling dominates Twitter. I'm sure Trump did not initiate this trend, but he has not helped it at all. And the immaturity that is just beneath the surface in many people, is easily triggered and promulgated. Both pro-Trump and anti-Trump citizens fall victim to this trend. Insults become the best we got, and that ain't good at all.
     
  8. One Brow

    One Brow Well-Known Member

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  9. Michaelr

    Michaelr Active Member

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    All I want to know is how many genders?
    2 Or 2 million?
    And how to know the difference.
     
  10. Bulletproof

    Bulletproof All-Jazzfanz First Team! Contributor 2018 Award Winner

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    What will happen to you either way?
     
  11. fishonjazz

    fishonjazz Well-Known Member Contributor 2018 Award Winner

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    I kinda feel the same way. I don't care what someone identifies as or how they dress or who they are attracted to at all. But I do sometimes like to have knowledge and information even if the thing I want knowledge or info about doesn't effect me in any way.

    It helps when speaking to someone to know how they identify so as not to offend them.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app
     
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  12. NAOS

    NAOS Well-Known Member

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    Is this the lost chapter of The Ballad of Buster Scruggs?
     
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  13. Red

    Red Well-Known Member

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  14. One Brow

    One Brow Well-Known Member

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    Also true, although I'm not sure how that relates to trolling in the 19th century.
     
  15. babe

    babe Well-Known Member

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    cultural values unlike the West, unlike the central Asians and the jungle peoples of Southeast Asia, plus a well-defined geographical area that favor genetic homogeneity over thousands of years. Sure a few Jews and others, but a large gene pool for the homers. Aztecs and Incas might be other examples.
     
  16. babe

    babe Well-Known Member

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    Just speaking for myself, I was a virtual slave until the internet with vehement hatred for the American Press, just like the Russian and Chinese propagandists.

    Trolling is a human right. It's more respectfully called conspicuous freedom of speech.
     
  17. Red

    Red Well-Known Member

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    No, it does not. There have been many presidential scandals, and some flat out corrupt men who occupied the Oval Office. But, it's the Internet, and social media like Twitter that has allowed trolling in virtual real time. Editorials, letters to the editor, and just the degree to which Americans had access to those earlier venues, is not the same as the availability of near instant reactions afforded by the internet.

    Of course we have always had "sides" and highly divisive eras in our history, the Vietnam era being the most divisive in my own lifetime( we could include "hippies" vs "rednecks" as a form of trolling in the Vietnam era), up to this point, but I still maintain that the Internet, and in particular social media, in conjunction with tribalism in our political dialog, that has coarsened our responses each side to the other.

    And, the existence of anonymity in many virtual venues, makes it far easier to act in a trolling manner. I have pointed out to folks many times that the things we say to each other in anonymity will play out far differently when, instead, we are sitting in a living room talking to one another, when we can actually see the people whom we may disagree with. Simply put, the virtual realities make it far easier to be mean and rotten toward one another.

    But the growth of tribalism as something that conditions our responses cannot be overlooked. The internet is simply one of the principle fields of battle for that tribalism.
     
  18. Red

    Red Well-Known Member

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    And with tribalism, some argue that cruelty is the point.

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/8/18173678/trump-shutdown-voter-florida

    In general, I find cruelty to be one of the defining traits of Trump's presidency. I do not find cruelty to be a desirable trait in any leader. I do not understand how this "makes America great again". Be it separating children from parents, dissing patriots who had the audacity to be captured in wartime, denying funds(as he has now threatened) to victims of California wildfires, I find such an approach to be a weakness in a leader, not a strength at all.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/the-cruelty-is-the-point/572104/
     
  19. gandalfe

    gandalfe Well-Known Member

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    “Editor William Purcell of the Rochester Union and Advertiser, who resigned control of his paper rather than support Grover Cleveland, was at the Gilsey House to-day. When asked why he refused to support the Democratic nominee he said: ‘It is not on either personal or political grounds. It is because I believe him to be a moral leper.’”
    The San Francisco Chronicle, 26 July 1884
     
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  20. babe

    babe Well-Known Member

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    Quite the hoot.

    Intellectuals wandering in the woods of their own imaginations, babbling about the tribalism they postulated in the first place with their analytical balkanization of society. Only they know. Only they can say. And it's "hate" if anyone just doesn't lie the same lies they make up.

    The difference is, Donald Trump doesn't care about any of all that nonsense. He doesn't even hate his worst critics. It is because he isn't mired in the bog, isn't lost in the woods of his own imagination. In my opinion, as I watched him deal with his opposition, he is just being sensible to reality. He believes his view of reality is the valid one, that is about it.

    And a significant majority of Americans, excepting ignorant newbies coming in from the Marxist hinterlands, agree with him. And by the time the newbies get a little "established" interests of their own.... jobs, businesses, homes.... they'll turn away from "intellectual" analysts pushing globalism just as well. It only takes about ten years, even for college kids, to find out what good sense is.....

    well, except for the "true believer" utopians who imagine they are going to run the world with their theories.

    I know it annoys the pious believers in their own fantastic dreams to have simpletons "trolling" a few facts past them in the murky waters of their minds. I know ideologues get frantic, call it a crisis if their big words don't just roll the chumps, but hey, no one here except me can even define "epistemological catastrophe"...… it means "ba! ba! they're calling me stupid, and I'm telling them what I was told in college."

    But Trump has a better definition: "Marxism is stupid"...… and if he had the same failing for eruditious redundancy that I have, he might go on to say "in all it's fantastic modern devolutions".
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019

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