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You’ll never go wrong betting on the stupidity of the avg American voter. This is what happens when you get most of your news from social media and let it’s algorithms determine what you know:

www.politico.com

Democrats have another infrastructure problem

The landmark bipartisan bill is popular with voters, but recent polling shows the vast majority of them don't even know it's now a law.
www.politico.com www.politico.com

Most people are big fans of President Joe Biden’s $550 billion infrastructure bill — except they don’t know it’s actually been passed. That’s the conclusion of new polling that promises to further rattle the Democratic Party.

Eight months after Congress cleared the landmark legislation to overhaul the nation’s roads, bridges, rails and broadband, only 24 percent of voters are aware it’s now a law, according to new polling by the center-left think tank Third Way and Impact Research that was shared first with POLITICO.
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BTW, ignorance about key political/scientific news isn’t just an American thing either. Look at this from Austria:

View: https://twitter.com/ngrossman81/status/1551640896474685453?s=21&t=BjcjeLf4G1L-pwqpfXqq2Q

I greatly fear holding a primary at a time that millions of Americans are completely clueless because of our broken media environment and we have an authoritarian movement on the right licking it’s chops to end American democracy. I don’t disagree that Biden is old as hell and I’d like to see some new leadership. But man oh man is that primary going to be ugly with the media coverage, the raw vitriol aimed at POC, women, and gay candidates, and promoted by social media algorithms, and Russia disinformation.

Just look at how these social media algorithms have ****ed with our politics over the last 3 years. Large segments of the population now think vaccines are bad, Russia is the victim of Ukrainian aggression, CRT is being taught in k12 schools, and gay people are raping every child who uses the bathroom. Dangerous times.
 
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The Thriller said:
A couple of things:

1. Have Democrats not been standing for things?
2. Opening things up for a primary is a huge gamble. What often is supported by the base and by the majority of Americans, might not be supported by key swing state voters who are more inclined to have a strong man who promises to make every one of their dreams come true. What is obvious to you might not be obvious to those in Penn or Mich who still think car factories circa 1950 are coming back.

Also, demographics. While most Americans have no problem with blacks, gays, and women, obviously plenty of others do. So if/when the primary opens up, will low info/avg voters be scared off by the nonsense? Democrats have a lot of promising candidates who are women, black, gay, centrist and liberal. You don’t think your avg/low info voter might think twice to vote for Mayor Pete bc they’ve been fed for 2+ years that all gays are tranny track pedos looking to rape your child in every public bathroom and read them LGBT books during Draq Queen story hour?

Am I saying that I fear that America isn’t ready for another black president? Or for its first woman president or openly gay president? It just might be when we’re facing down the barrel of an authoritarian Trump or fascist DeSantis. Do we want to find out? It’s risky. Especially since you know that FB algorithm is gonna be working in OT promoting thee most revolting disinformation about the election. Not to mention bad actors like Putin who might see Trump as their only way out of the hubris they’ve created in Ukraine.

3. I think base voters should be excited to vote for any Dem in 2024. It’s better for a Democratic corpse to occupy the White House than Trump or DeSantis. We can worry about passing the next round of health care policy later. Right now we are trying to keep authoritarians from ending American democracy.

You know what I do wish more base voters cared about? Local elections. Much can be done at the state level. How many voters blame Biden but can’t even tell you who their governor is? And wouldn’t it be nice to have more Senators in the Senate? Instead, Biden’s entire agenda is held hostage by Manchinema. FDR couldn’t pass anything in this Senate where Repubs say no to everything and Manchinema are bought off. Makes me wonder if it would actually be better for us to lose the presidency but hold onto the Senate? Then again, authoritarians don’t need the Senate. They’ll still find ways to consolidate power.
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If the Republican candidate is not Trump or DeSantis I might vote for them over Biden. So...
 
The Thriller said:
You’ll never go wrong betting on the stupidity of the avg American voter. This is what happens when you get most of your news from social media and let it’s algorithms determine what you know:

www.politico.com

Democrats have another infrastructure problem

The landmark bipartisan bill is popular with voters, but recent polling shows the vast majority of them don't even know it's now a law.
www.politico.com www.politico.com


BTW, ignorance about key political/scientific news isn’t just an American thing either. Look at this from Austria:

View: https://twitter.com/ngrossman81/status/1551640896474685453?s=21&t=BjcjeLf4G1L-pwqpfXqq2Q

I greatly fear holding a primary at a time that millions of Americans are completely clueless because of our broken media environment and we have an authoritarian movement on the right licking it’s chops to end American democracy. I don’t disagree that Biden is old as hell and I’d like to see some new leadership. But man oh man is that primary going to be ugly with the media coverage, the raw vitriol aimed at POC, women, and gay candidates, and promoted by social media algorithms, and Russia disinformation.

Just look at how these social media algorithms have ****ed with our politics over the last 3 years. Large segments of the population now think vaccines are bad, Russia is the victim of Ukrainian aggression, CRT is being taught in k12 schools, and gay people are raping every child who uses the bathroom. Dangerous times.
Click to expand...

I just want to say that "ungeimpft" is a difficult word to pronounce.
 
LogGrad98 said:
I just want to say that "ungeimpft" is a difficult word to pronounce.
Click to expand...
LOL. True. I hear that downing a six-pack prior to saying it can help. Many people say it helps many people…

But the big issue is that at a time when such basic facts as: vaccines prevent disease and Putin is a ruthless dictator are questioned and disinformation is so high, are we really prepared for what a bloody primary would entail? Democrats will be questioning and attacking each other. Will the Democrat who emerges from the primary still be electable for the general when disinformation is so widespread and the stakes are so high? It’s not like Trump/DeSantis is a harmless moderate like Bush I or Bob Dole.

Would it be better to stay with the guy who beat Trump already? Or do you roll the dice, throw away incumbency, and go with someone new?
 
The Thriller said:
Would it be better to stay with the guy who beat Trump already? Or do you roll the dice, throw away incumbency, and go with someone new?
Click to expand...
I can’t answer that at the moment, but after the midterms, barring an unexpectedly good Democratic showing, you can be certain the talk of replacing Biden is going to gain increasing momentum….

www.cnn.com

CNN Poll: 75% of Democratic voters want someone other than Biden in 2024

A new CNN poll finds 75% of Democratic and Democratic-leaning voters want the party to nominate someone other than President Joe Biden in the 2024 election, a sharp increase from earlier this year.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com
 
The Thriller said:
LOL. True. I hear that downing a six-pack prior to saying it can help. Many people say it helps many people…

But the big issue is that at a time when such basic facts as: vaccines prevent disease and Putin is a ruthless dictator are questioned and disinformation is so high, are we really prepared for what a bloody primary would entail? Democrats will be questioning and attacking each other. Will the Democrat who emerges from the primary still be electable for the general when disinformation is so widespread and the stakes are so high? It’s not like Trump/DeSantis is a harmless moderate like Bush I or Bob Dole.

Would it be better to stay with the guy who beat Trump already? Or do you roll the dice, throw away incumbency, and go with someone new?
Click to expand...

Someone new


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app
 
Red said:
I can’t answer that at the moment, but after the midterms, barring an unexpectedly good Democratic showing, you can be certain the talk of replacing Biden is going to gain increasing momentum….

www.cnn.com

CNN Poll: 75% of Democratic voters want someone other than Biden in 2024

A new CNN poll finds 75% of Democratic and Democratic-leaning voters want the party to nominate someone other than President Joe Biden in the 2024 election, a sharp increase from earlier this year.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com
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What’s funny is I think Dems are going to do well in the midterms. They’ll probably still lose the House (but not by as much as originally predicted) but they’ll probably hold onto or pick up a few seats in the Senate. So then what?
 
For me to vote for any R for President, they have to do the following:

1. Firmly and unequivocally say that the 2020 election was free and fair and that it wasn't stolen, it was lost
2. Denounce Trumpism and that we need to work together and not apart
3. Commit themselves to improving things across the aisle with regards to health care, budget reconciliation, etc.

That may be a bridge too far and I still don't see a path where anyone but Trump/Desantis are your two most likely frontrunners in a primary; Desantis is going to feel like a fool if he steps aside for Trump thinking the VP slot is his when it's likely to go to someone like Kristi Noem.
 
Avery said:
For me to vote for any R for President, they have to do the following:

1. Firmly and unequivocally say that the 2020 election was free and fair and that it wasn't stolen, it was lost
2. Denounce Trumpism and that we need to work together and not apart
3. Commit themselves to improving things across the aisle with regards to health care, budget reconciliation, etc.

That may be a bridge too far and I still don't see a path where anyone but Trump/Desantis are your two most likely frontrunners in a primary; Desantis is going to feel like a fool if he steps aside for Trump thinking the VP slot is his when it's likely to go to someone like Kristi Noem.
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May be a bridge too far?

Um.

You should Google what happened to Liz ****ing Cheney.

The Republican Party you want is still an election cycle or two away. And those are election cycles in which they lose. The only way to correct this party is to force them out of power for several election cycles until they snap out of this drive for authoritarianism.
 
The Thriller said:
What’s funny is I think Dems are going to do well in the midterms. They’ll probably still lose the House (but not by as much as originally predicted) but they’ll probably hold onto or pick up a few seats in the Senate. So then what?
Click to expand...
I am hopeful where the Senate is concerned. The results of the midterms will have an effect on the question, for sure. We’ll see…
 
History has enough examples of how hard it is to understand what’s really happening WHILE it’s happening, how tough to ferret out where trends are leading while still midstream. But obviously red and blue states are growing apart….

www.cnn.com

Analysis: Red states are building a nation within a nation

It was a revealing sign of the times when the Supreme Court last week, in response to a lawsuit from the Republican state attorneys general in Texas and Louisiana, blocked President Joe Biden's administration from changing a key element of federal immigration policy.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com

“The only time I can recall in American history even remotely like this [divergence] was after the Civil War when the separate but equal doctrine began to emerge" across the South as a backlash against the attempts of the 13th, 14th and 15th Constitutional amendments to ensure equality for the freed slaves, says Donald Kettl, the former dean of the public policy school at the University of Maryland and author of the book, "The Divided States of America." He added, "It's a multifront war with very sharp swords."….

…….Yet the real threat in the red state effort to set their own course may be less an advantage for one side or another than a challenge to the nation's underlying cohesion. As red states grow more aggressive about going their own way, while working to preempt challenges from above (the federal government) or below (blue local governments), they are testing how much divergence the nation's fundamental cohesion can take before it begins to unravel.

"You have a very dangerous situation," said David Leopold, a former president of the American Immigration Lawyers Association and legal adviser to the immigration advocacy group America's Voice. "This is a direct threat to the nation as a unified entity. This is one step closer to the country dividing into two separate countries."
 
Avery said:
For me to vote for any R for President, they have to do the following:

1. Firmly and unequivocally say that the 2020 election was free and fair and that it wasn't stolen, it was lost
2. Denounce Trumpism and that we need to work together and not apart
3. Commit themselves to improving things across the aisle with regards to health care, budget reconciliation, etc.

That may be a bridge too far and I still don't see a path where anyone but Trump/Desantis are your two most likely frontrunners in a primary; Desantis is going to feel like a fool if he steps aside for Trump thinking the VP slot is his when it's likely to go to someone like Kristi Noem.
Click to expand...
None of those will happen. And no one in 20+ years has even made an effort for #3. Literally no one.
 
Imagine a country where there was no such thing as an actual party and everyone are just independents with their own views that we voted on.

Will never happen because the world doesn't even function that way, but would be great to vote on the people, not the party.

Even if D's hate Biden, if he's the candidate, they'll fall in line. If it's Trump, they'll fall in line. If they don't do either, they'll just sit on the sidelines and not endorse anyone. We've all seen this movie before.
 
Avery said:
Imagine a country where there was no such thing as an actual party and everyone are just independents with their own views that we voted on.
Click to expand...
Our system of government is actually closer to that then nearly every other system in the world. In a large chunk of the world, people vote for parties. They don't vote for candidate X or candidate Y, but for Labour, or Blahblah First, or Blahblah Social Democrat. Then the parties are able to appoint a number of members proportional to the vote they received. If Labour gets 37% of the vote then they appoint 37% of the seats.

In the US system, everyone runs individually and sets their policies individually. Joe Manchin and AOC are both democrats despite their significantly different political platforms. Our political parties are in practice fund raising networks with the two biggest fund raising networks being the GOP and the DNC. The GOP and DNC are as dominant as they are because advertising works and advertising is expensive. Money is speech, the First Amendment isn't going anywhere, and neither the GOP or DNC will allow the kind of real reform to candidate financing that would diminish their power. The closest thing we have to choice are the independent stances taken by the different individual candidates within the parties.
 
LogGrad98 said:
None of those will happen. And no one in 20+ years has even made an effort for #3. Literally no one.
Click to expand...
I thought the Obama admin attempted to work across the aisle regarding economic stimulus packages and the ACA. Republicans decided that stringing him along and then voting against their own proposals was the best way to make Obama a one-term president. Almost every American, Republican or Democrat, has benefitted directly or indirectly from the ACA. My extended family in particular have many people with pre-existing conditions that wouldn’t have been covered by health insurance had the ACA never been passed.

I also thought Bush reached across the aisle early in his presidency. No Child Left Behind might not be a silver bullet but it was a valiant attempt by both political parties to improve public edu. Bush was also the last president who attempted to resolve immigration issues.

www.reuters.com

Senate kills Bush immigration reform bill

The U.S. Senate dealt a fatal blow on Thursday to President George W. Bush's overhaul of immigration policy -- an emotional issue that has divided Americans in the run-up to next year's presidential election.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
 
Avery said:
Imagine a country where there was no such thing as an actual party and everyone are just independents with their own views that we voted on.

Will never happen because the world doesn't even function that way, but would be great to vote on the people, not the party.

Even if D's hate Biden, if he's the candidate, they'll fall in line. If it's Trump, they'll fall in line. If they don't do either, they'll just sit on the sidelines and not endorse anyone. We've all seen this movie before.
Click to expand...
I think there’s a strong argument that the weakening of political parties is what’s created the mess we’re in. Political parties should act as gatekeepers. Historically, political parties would’ve thrown out demagogues like Trump and promoted moderates. Now they’re weakened to the point that demagogues don’t need the political party and can just super charge large mobs with their fiery rhetoric.

news.yale.edu

Polarization in U.S. politics starts with weak political parties

Ian Shapiro, Sterling Professor of Political Science at Yale, says weak political parties are responsible for the polarization in American politics.
news.yale.edu news.yale.edu

I think the frustration comes from only realistically having two political parties to choose from. That comes with the type of government we’ve adopted. We’re not a parliamentarian system. Although, you probably could encourage more political parties to become competitive if you got rid of winner take all systems, like the electoral college for president and adopted proportional representation voting for state legislatures and the House. You’d also have to get rid of the filibuster and have strong campaign finance laws. Stuff that couldn’t be passed right now. And if they were passed, would be gutted by the SCOTUS.
www.fairvote.org

Archives - FairVote

Review FairVote's legacy content from the previous website (2014-2022).
www.fairvote.org www.fairvote.org
 
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The Thriller said:
I thought the Obama admin attempted to work across the aisle regarding economic stimulus packages and the ACA. Republicans decided that stringing him along and then voting against their own proposals was the best way to make Obama a one-term president. Almost every American, Republican or Democrat, has benefitted directly or indirectly from the ACA. My extended family in particular have many people with pre-existing conditions that wouldn’t have been covered by health insurance had the ACA never been passed.

I also thought Bush reached across the aisle early in his presidency. No Child Left Behind might not be a silver bullet but it was a valiant attempt by both political parties to improve public edu. Bush was also the last president who attempted to resolve immigration issues.

www.reuters.com

Senate kills Bush immigration reform bill

The U.S. Senate dealt a fatal blow on Thursday to President George W. Bush's overhaul of immigration policy -- an emotional issue that has divided Americans in the run-up to next year's presidential election.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
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Yeah they did a bit. The real problem is in Congress and the Senate. The president can really only do so much. If everyone else won't respond then it gets nowhere. We need a real uniter to step up, in the presidency and in the legislature.
 
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