The Biden Administration and All Things Politics

[Bucknutz]

fishonjazz mentioned your point on PPP and connected it to student loan debt. I don't think anyone gives half a **** if you post about student loan debt or not.

I don’t believe it’s connected. Did the government force people to go to college and take on massive loans? Did the government force people to go to expensive colleges?

Sorry that you feel the need to launch into personal attacks on one of the better and more reasonable posters on this site because of your Pee Pee Program sensitivity, but it was uncalled for. LogGrad is not a smug *******. He's been on this site for well over 10 years and has been a voice of reason more often than not.

Great to hear that. But you can still be a smug ******* on certain topics. So it’s okay to personally attack my “pee pee program sensitivity”, but not someone who has been site for 10 years. It’s okay to personally attack “trumpers“ non stop for 7 years but not a poster you find reasonable. Got it. Just selective attacks are not okay with you.

I'm honestly sympathetic to you if you are a small business owner and COVID (and the response to COVID) caused you hardship.

It’s not about me. Its about everyone who was forced to shut down. States that shut down businesses. Local cities that shut down businesses. This is why people are worse off now then before.

Doesn't really change the fact that people who were willing to accept government assistance for a problem that otherwise could have been left as their own burden to bare are criticizing a new program to help people who did what they thought was right, which was to get a college education, and now face crippling student loan debt. They are being given some relief for doing the thing that is beneficial to their nation (which is to become an educated and skilled person who applies their talent to U.S. commercial and/or industrial endeavors).

So trade careers are not beneficial? Are gig workers not beneficial? You are not forced into going to college to be beneficial to this country. Explain to me why some professions need a degree? Why does a retail manager need a degree? Can they not learn what is taught in college through experience and training in a corporate setting? Why take out a $50,000 loan to go to Ohio State to get a BA in Business and work retail? Why can’t an accountant go to a trade school for accountants that can be subsidized by the big 4 accounting firms or other firms. Have a work and learn program that benefits both sides. No they want you to take out a $80,000 loan for a masters degree that you have to spend $20,000 of on BS classes that have no association with your profession. Then get a $55k starting salary and take years to pay off loans.

There needs to be a new modern form of an education system.

Keeping businesses going through a challenging time and keeping individuals going through a challenging time are not dissimilar efforts in my opinion.

One is Forced the other is a choice.

Back when I thought libertarianism was about individuals and their rights and freedom I considered myself a libertarian. Once I learned that the libertarian movement was a scam by corporations to relive them of their regulatory obligations and their liability to individuals whom they hurt I realized that I wasn't that kind of libertarian. So I can see how "capitalists" and/or libertarians would be fine with PPP while also being appaled at the idea of student loan forgiveness. We all exist so that some benevolent enterprise can employ us in a way that they get 80% of the value of our work and we get less than 20% of our value returned.

After saying all this, I would be fine with paying off all Student debt. If and only when, there is a new education system in place and a clear choice is placed before each student. If you go to a traditional college, you have the risk of taking on debit that the government will not be backing (Should be a school risk not a government risk). Go to a trade school and have it subsidized or go to a new educational system (education marketplace) that is covered by the government.

 

[fishonjazz]

I don’t believe it’s connected. Did the government force people to go to college and take on massive loans? Did the government force people to go to expensive colleges?


Great to hear that. But you can still be a smug ******* on certain topics. So it’s okay to personally attack my “pee pee program sensitivity”, but not someone who has been site for 10 years. It’s okay to personally attack “trumpers“ non stop for 7 years but not a poster you find reasonable. Got it. Just selective attacks are not okay with you.


It’s not about me. Its about everyone who was forced to shut down. States that shut down businesses. Local cities that shut down businesses. This is why people are worse off now then before.


So trade careers are not beneficial? Are gig workers not beneficial? You are not forced into going to college to be beneficial to this country. Explain to me why some professions need a degree? Why does a retail manager need a degree? Can they not learn what is taught in college through experience and training in a corporate setting? Why take out a $50,000 loan to go to Ohio State to get a BA in Business and work retail? Why can’t an accountant go to a trade school for accountants that can be subsidized by the big 4 accounting firms or other firms. Have a work and learn program that benefits both sides. No they want you to take out a $80,000 loan for a masters degree that you have to spend $20,000 of on BS classes that have no association with your profession. Then get a $55k starting salary and take years to pay off loans.

There needs to be a new modern form of an education system.


One is Forced the other is a choice.


After saying all this, I would be fine with paying off all Student debt. If and only when, there is a new education system in place and a clear choice is placed before each student. If you go to a traditional college, you have the risk of taking on debit that the government will not be backing (Should be a school risk not a government risk). Go to a trade school and have it subsidized or go to a new educational system (education marketplace) that is covered by the government.

Did the government force anyone to start their own business? I didn't make that choice and instead got hired by a huge company and therefore didn't need any PPP.
See thing is that I see people needing help and getting help as a good thing.
Btw I went to college and was working at various jobs during that time to pay for it (I had saved up about 8,000 of my own money before leaving for college) mostly at little caesars pizza but also a few other crap jobs until I could no longer afford it and dropped out. I never took out a loan. Some people take loans for college not because they want to or choose to but because they feel they have to.
People getting help which in turn helps the country is a good thing imo. In both cases where the government helped people who needed help. No one forced anyone to take a student loan but people did, it caused major struggles, government helped. No one forced anyone to take the risk of starting their own business but people did, they had struggles due to a pandemic, the government helped. Both things (taking out loans and starting businesses) have risk.

To recap, I never took out a loan and never started a business and therefore never received any help from the government financially yet I am still ok with others getting help as I root for my fellow americans in need. I want other to succeed and to get help when they need it. Its good for them and good for the country.

 

[Bucknutz]

Did the government force anyone to start their own business? I didn't make that choice and instead got hired by a huge company and therefore didn't need any PPP.
See thing is that I see people needing help and getting help as a good thing.

No they didn’t force anyone to start their own business. So if I start my own business and it fails, does the government come in and pay for all my business debt and personal debit that I used to create a business? Because, you know I need help with my loans and debt.

Should all businesses get their debt paid for if they are not successful? Or does the person know the risk of starting a business?

So what about the persons who got hired by a smaller company that relied on the PPP to help pay for that persons salary and not lay them off even though it didn’t cover all the salary and the business paid the rest. Should the government pay the business the extra difference?

People getting help which in turn helps the country is a good thing imo. In both cases where the government helped people who needed help. No one forced anyone to take a student loan but people did, it caused major struggles, government helped.

So when someone struggles, not caused by the government, the government should help?
Once again, should the government pay a persons business debt, because they are struggling with business debt?

No one forced anyone to take the risk of starting their own business but people did, they had struggles due to a pandemic, the government helped. Both things (taking out loans and starting businesses) have risk.

Government forced is not a risk.

To recap, I never took out a loan and never started a business and therefore never received any help from the government financially yet I am still ok with others getting help as I root for my fellow americans in need. I want other to succeed and to get help when they need it. Its good for them and good for the country.

You did receive government financial help. Did you ever get money from the Covid stimulus payments?

 

[fishonjazz]

No they didn’t force anyone to start their own business. So if I start my own business and it fails, does the government come in and pay for all my business debt and personal debit that I used to create a business? Because, you know I need help with my loans and debt.

Should all businesses get their debt paid for if they are not successful? Or does the person know the risk of starting a business?

So what about the persons who got hired by a smaller company that relied on the PPP to help pay for that persons salary and not lay them off even though it didn’t cover all the salary and the business paid the rest. Should the government pay the business the extra difference?



So when someone struggles, not caused by the government, the government should help?
Once again, should the government pay a persons business debt, because they are struggling with business debt?


Government forced is not a risk.


You did receive government financial help. Did you ever get money from the Covid stimulus payments?

I always like when people who need help get help. Its really quite simple. You wont get me to complain about people needing help getting help. Sorry. Farmers have been given handouts to keep going. Love it. Banks were bailed out in the recession. A few years later the economy was booming. Thank god they got the assistance they needed even though it was their own mistakes that caused the mess. Im still happy that the country recovered. I love this country.

 

[fishonjazz]

When I bought my first home back in 2009 I got an 8,500 tax credit the next tax season. It was awesome! Helped me so so much! Many other americans also received that financial assistance. Now according to many republicans all that money being given to those who needed it by the government should have ruined the country and been the countries downfall. Yet just a few short years later the economy and stock market etc was doing better than ever before.

 

[gandalfe]

No they didn’t force anyone to start their own business. So if I start my own business and it fails, does the government come in and pay for all my business debt and personal debit that I used to create a business? Because, you know I need help with my loans and debt.

Should all businesses get their debt paid for if they are not successful? Or does the person know the risk of starting a business?

So what about the persons who got hired by a smaller company that relied on the PPP to help pay for that persons salary and not lay them off even though it didn’t cover all the salary and the business paid the rest. Should the government pay the business the extra difference?



So when someone struggles, not caused by the government, the government should help?
Once again, should the government pay a persons business debt, because they are struggling with business debt?


Government forced is not a risk.


You did receive government financial help. Did you ever get money from the Covid stimulus payments?

One thing that hasn't been brought up:

If you have a business that goes into debt, you (or your business) can declare bankruptcy and have the debt wiped out.

You can't do that with student loan debt.

 

[Bucknutz]

One thing that hasn't been brought up:

If you have a business that goes into debt, you (or your business) can declare bankruptcy and have the debt wiped out.

You can't do that with student loan debt.

Depends on what bankruptcy option you choose. If you choose to wipe it out you can loose personal assets as well, including your home. Or you can choose to pay the debt in a restructuring deal.
But again the government doesn’t come in and pay off the debt so you can keep your assets.

 

[Bucknutz]

I always like when people who need help get help. Its really quite simple. You wont get me to complain about people needing help getting help. Sorry. Farmers have been given handouts to keep going. Love it. Banks were bailed out in the recession. A few years later the economy was booming. Thank god they got the assistance they needed even though it was their own mistakes that caused the mess. Im still happy that the country recovered. I love this country.

I’m not arguing against helping with student debt. But this does absolutely nothing to stop the issue from continuing. There needs to be a fundamental change when it comes to higher learning and how to pay for it.

The cost of school keeps going up and the loans will continue to get larger and then in the near future when more people are in more school debt, we won’t be talking about billions in bail out.

 

[Gameface]

I don’t believe it’s connected. Did the government force people to go to college and take on massive loans? Did the government force people to go to expensive colleges?

fish already said it, but did the government force people to open a business?

Great to hear that. But you can still be a smug ******* on certain topics. So it’s okay to personally attack my “pee pee program sensitivity”, but not someone who has been site for 10 years. It’s okay to personally attack “trumpers“ non stop for 7 years but not a poster you find reasonable. Got it. Just selective attacks are not okay with you.

I'm a smug *** for sure a lot of the time. I think the way I present my opinions on the internet is 1000% different than I would ever present them in person. I think that's true for a lot of people.

I'm not innocent from trying to score lols sometimes, even thought I'm embarrassingly bad at it. Pee Pee Program was a cheap attempt at cheap humor. Yeah, I mean it's still intended in a confrontational way, but it was mostly meant to be stupidly funny, I mean I know it's no "let's go Brandon" but maybe it was something on the level of "libtard" or one of those fancy zingers the Trump crowd has made so popular lately.

It’s not about me. Its about everyone who was forced to shut down. States that shut down businesses. Local cities that shut down businesses. This is why people are worse off now then before.

Yeah, tell me about it! I know a few human beings who shut down as a result of COVID. They and the people who loved them are far worse off now than they were before COVID.

So trade careers are not beneficial? Are gig workers not beneficial? You are not forced into going to college to be beneficial to this country. Explain to me why some professions need a degree? Why does a retail manager need a degree? Can they not learn what is taught in college through experience and training in a corporate setting? Why take out a $50,000 loan to go to Ohio State to get a BA in Business and work retail? Why can’t an accountant go to a trade school for accountants that can be subsidized by the big 4 accounting firms or other firms. Have a work and learn program that benefits both sides. No they want you to take out a $80,000 loan for a masters degree that you have to spend $20,000 of on BS classes that have no association with your profession. Then get a $55k starting salary and take years to pay off loans.

There needs to be a new modern form of an education system.

I'm a ****ing High School drop out. I got technical training in the U.S. Navy. I was able to get into the Navy at 23 years old, after having tried to join when I was 19, because I got my juvenile record expunged, enrolled at Horizonte to get the last 1/4 credit I needed for a HS Diploma and waited 3 months after I failed the pre-bootcamp drug test for MJ (when I tried to join in 1999 they didn't test until you got to bootcamp).

I have worked my entire adult life in jobs I was able to get due to the training I got in the Navy. I'm happy the Navy was there to give me technical training, and was willing to give me an opportunity based on my test taking ability. I had worked many jobs before the Navy. I was a: waiter(Lonestar Steakhouse, The Retirement Inn at Cottonwood Creek), a short order cook (Hardees), dishwasher (Hires Big H, Outback Steakhouse), a cashier (Shopko, Payless Drug Store), a prep cook (Outback Steakhouse), a warehouse order puller (Reuel's Art and Frame, Goodyear), worker at a plant/tree nursery (can't remember the name), temp agency general laborer, stone setter (O.C. Tanner), laser engraving R&D (O.C.Tanner). EDIT: I forgot one (at least), receiving operator (NPS) this was one of my most enjoyable jobs. NPS buys unclaimed packages from FedEx, UPS, USPS and the like. My job was to open each box, enter a description of the contents, print out a label and attach it to the box, then move the box to the correct pile if there wasn't a helper that day to move the box. The NPS job paid full on poop but it was honestly the most satisfying paid work I've ever done. Some of you might know NPS as the grocery store that has a section called "the out of date deli" *not a joke*

It would have been very nice if instead of being fed this life or death myth about college by every single person in any school setting there would have been realistic options to pursue trades instead of mixed academics.

One is Forced the other is a choice.


After saying all this, I would be fine with paying off all Student debt. If and only when, there is a new education system in place and a clear choice is placed before each student. If you go to a traditional college, you have the risk of taking on debit that the government will not be backing (Should be a school risk not a government risk). Go to a trade school and have it subsidized or go to a new educational system (education marketplace) that is covered by the government.

 

[Deleted member 365]

fish already said it, but did the government force people to open a business?

I'm a smug *** for sure a lot of the time. I think the way I present my opinions on the internet is 1000% different than I would ever present them in person. I think that's true for a lot of people.

I'm not innocent from trying to score lols sometimes, even thought I'm embarrassingly bad at it. Pee Pee Program was a cheap attempt at cheap humor. Yeah, I mean it's still intended in a confrontational way, but it was mostly meant to be stupidly funny, I mean I know it's no "let's go Brandon" but maybe it was something on the level of "libtard" or one of those fancy zingers the Trump crowd has made so popular lately.

Yeah, tell me about it! I know a few human beings who shut down as a result of COVID. They and the people who loved them are far worse off now than they were before COVID.

I'm a ****ing High School drop out. I got technical training in the U.S. Navy. I was able to get into the Navy at 23 years old, after having tried to join when I was 19, because I got my juvenile record expunged, enrolled at Horizonte to get the last 1/4 credit I needed for a HS Diploma and waited 3 months after I failed the pre-bootcamp drug test for MJ (when I tried to join in 1999 they didn't test until you got to bootcamp).

I have worked my entire adult life in jobs I was able to get due to the training I got in the Navy. I'm happy the Navy was there to give me technical training, and was willing to give me an opportunity based on my test taking ability. I had worked many jobs before the Navy. I was a: waiter(Lonestar Steakhouse, The Retirement Inn at Cottonwood Creek), a short order cook (Hardees), dishwasher (Hires Big H, Outback Steakhouse), a cashier (Shopko, Payless Drug Store), a prep cook (Outback Steakhouse), a warehouse order puller (Reuel's Art and Frame, Goodyear), worker at a plant/tree nursery (can't remember the name), temp agency general laborer, stone setter (O.C. Tanner), laser engraving R&D (O.C.Tanner).

It would have been very nice if instead of being fed this life or death myth about college by every single person in any school setting there would have been realistic options to pursue trades instead of mixed academics.

Just to add, government wasn’t solely responsible for businesses shutting down during the pandemic. Many of my wife’s clients who received “pee pee” funding couldn’t do business regardless of what the state government mandated. Hard to sell lavender oil during a ****ing pandemic that is spread through the air. One in particular was a private company that provides medical equipment for elective surgery. The government didn’t tell them to stop doing business. They made that decision themselves because performing elective surgery on patients during a pandemic that is spread through the air would be ridiculously stupid.

I think we need to stop blaming business shutdowns on the government, regardless of what Fox News says. A certain virus that has killed over one million Americans played a key role in many business decisions to close down. Duh gubbamint isn’t always the bad guy. In fact, had we ignored Covid even more than we did, how many more would’ve died? Two million? Five? Millions dying isn’t good for business.

 

[Bucknutz]

fish already said it, but did the government force people to open a business?

I'm a smug *** for sure a lot of the time. I think the way I present my opinions on the internet is 1000% different than I would ever present them in person. I think that's true for a lot of people.

I'm not innocent from trying to score lols sometimes, even thought I'm embarrassingly bad at it. Pee Pee Program was a cheap attempt at cheap humor. Yeah, I mean it's still intended in a confrontational way, but it was mostly meant to be stupidly funny, I mean I know it's no "let's go Brandon" but maybe it was something on the level of "libtard" or one of those fancy zingers the Trump crowd has made so popular lately.

Yeah, tell me about it! I know a few human beings who shut down as a result of COVID. They and the people who loved them are far worse off now than they were before COVID.

I'm a ****ing High School drop out. I got technical training in the U.S. Navy. I was able to get into the Navy at 23 years old, after having tried to join when I was 19, because I got my juvenile record expunged, enrolled at Horizonte to get the last 1/4 credit I needed for a HS Diploma and waited 3 months after I failed the pre-bootcamp drug test for MJ (when I tried to join in 1999 they didn't test until you got to bootcamp).

I have worked my entire adult life in jobs I was able to get due to the training I got in the Navy. I'm happy the Navy was there to give me technical training, and was willing to give me an opportunity based on my test taking ability. I had worked many jobs before the Navy. I was a: waiter(Lonestar Steakhouse, The Retirement Inn at Cottonwood Creek), a short order cook (Hardees), dishwasher (Hires Big H, Outback Steakhouse), a cashier (Shopko, Payless Drug Store), a prep cook (Outback Steakhouse), a warehouse order puller (Reuel's Art and Frame, Goodyear), worker at a plant/tree nursery (can't remember the name), temp agency general laborer, stone setter (O.C. Tanner), laser engraving R&D (O.C.Tanner).

I love hearing this. You took an opportunity with the military which trained you for a career, without taking on the debt. A great option for youth as well. I had a great friend who went to dental school paid by the military for so many years of service. Got an education and training without taking on debt. Then he got out of the military and took on debt to start his own practice.

It would have been very nice if instead of being fed this life or death myth about college by every single person in any school setting there would have been realistic options to pursue trades instead of mixed academics.

Agreed.

 

[fishonjazz]

I’m not arguing against helping with student debt. But this does absolutely nothing to stop the issue from continuing. There needs to be a fundamental change when it comes to higher learning and how to pay for it.

The cost of school keeps going up and the loans will continue to get larger and then in the near future when more people are in more school debt, we won’t be talking about billions in bail out.

I agree 100%. Btw, I enjoy your contributions and Im sorry that you get ganged up on. I will try to refrain from commenting when someone else is debating with you as I know how that can feel like being attacked by a bunch of people at once and it isn't deserved.