The Biden Administration and All Things Politics

[Bucknutz]

I'm curious.

Do you know the method by which OB suggested it enabled/protected child molesters, specifically ones directly related to the child? I'm not asking if he's right or if he's wrong. I'm asking if you know what it was about the bill that he suggested protected them?

I don’t. That’s why I asked him. I live in Tampa, so I have been following it pretty closely and no one has brought up the point of enabling child molesters.

I wanting to see what he is reading that explained to him this point.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Comments like yours make me wonder what I would do if you actually responded to the principal point of my post, which is that the Florida law enables child molesters, especially if they are parents/guardians. Nothing to rebut that? Did you find one sentence in the law itself that makes it easier to find or prosecute molesters? Because I saw several that makes it easier for them to hide.

I have no interest in your obvious straw man. The legislation doesn't prohibit everything related in any way to sex or gender. It establishes the Florida State Board of Education as the arbiter of what is approved content and forbids teachers, schools, or local school boards from going beyond what has been set as age or developmentally appropriate by the state. Everything coming from your keyboard in this thread is nonsense easily falsified by the text of the law but I've known you long enough to know that you'll never admit it so there is no point in debating your idiotic take.

Yes there is still age appropriate content in Florida. Yes there are still school councilors and social workers in Florida. Yes teachers are still mandatory reporters in Florida.

 

[Gameface]

I don’t. That’s why I asked him. I live in Tampa, so I have been following it pretty closely and no one has brought up the point of enabling child molesters.

I wanting to see what he is reading that explained to him this point.

Post #1814.

He says that it prohibits what school workers can ask children about sexual issues, like if they are being molested. Those are not his exact words, but it's in post #1814. The bill promotes secrecy about sex which would be desirable by any molester in the child's household because now the school can't investigate these issues by asking the child the questions they would need in order to uncover such activity.

 

[Bucknutz]

Post #1814.

He says that it prohibits what school workers can ask children about sexual issues, like if they are being molested. Those are not his exact words, but it's in post #1814. The bill promotes secrecy about sex which would be desirable by any molester in the child's household because now the school can't investigate these issues by asking the child the questions they would need in order to uncover such activity.

Where in the bill does it stop a child from talking to someone about being molested?

 

[Gameface]

Where in the bill does it stop a child from talking to someone about being molested?

I don't have any idea. I was primarily just interested in whether before questioning him you had considered what he had said. I got my answer.

 

[One Brow]

Where in the bill does it enable child molesters?

Among other items, teachers are not allowed to give K-3 children questionaires, nor have discussions with them, about sexual issues (including molestation) without parental permission. How many molesting parents will give that permission?

 

[Bucknutz]

Among other items, teachers are not allowed to give K-3 children questionaires, nor have discussions with them, about sexual issues (including molestation) without parental permission. How many molesting parents will give that permission?

Where in the bill does it say this?

 

[One Brow]

I have no interest in your obvious straw man.

Not straw man, an obvious, presumably unintended, consequence.

The legislation doesn't prohibit everything related in any way to sex or gender.

It does, explicitly, for grades K-3. In addition, the preamble even says this is a goal of the bill.

It establishes the Florida State Board of Education as the arbiter of what is approved content and forbids teachers, schools, or local school boards from going beyond what has been set as age or developmentally appropriate by the state.

It does many other things as well. Have you read the law?

Everything coming from your keyboard in this thread is nonsense easily falsified by the text of the law ...

1. In accordance with the rights of parents enumerated 67 in ss. 1002.20 and 1014.04, adopt procedures for notifying a 68 student's parent if there is a change in the student's services 69 or monitoring related to the student's mental, emotional, or 70 physical health or well-being and the school's ability to 71 provide a safe and supportive learning environment for the 72 student. The procedures must reinforce the fundamental right of 73 parents to make decisions regarding the upbringing and control 74 of their children by requiring school district personnel to 75 encourage a student to discuss issues relating to his or her 76 well-being with his or her parent or to facilitate discussion of 77 the issue with the parent.

If a student needs services from suspected molestation, they need to work it out with their parent. Plain as day.

A school district may not adopt procedures or student 82 support forms that prohibit school district personnel from 83 notifying a parent about his or her student's mental, emotional, 84 or physical health or well-being, or a change in related 85 services or monitoring, or that encourage or have the effect of 86 encouraging a student to withhold from a parent such 87 information.

If you think a parent is molesting their child, the school can't withhold any information from the parent.

That's just the first two. There are more.

but I've known you long enough to know that you'll never admit it so there is no point in debating your idiotic take.

I admit error from time to time. I can also read. I await your presentation of the plain text that refutes what I just types.

Yes there is still age appropriate content in Florida. Yes there are still school councilors and social workers in Florida. Yes teachers are still mandatory reporters in Florida.

Except now, they have to inform the parents while the entire process is going on.

 

[One Brow]

Among other items, teachers are not allowed to give K-3 children questionaires, nor have discussions with them, about sexual issues (including molestation) without parental permission. How many molesting parents will give that permission?

Where in the bill does it say this?

It's item #1, for crying out load.

 

[Bucknutz]

It's item #1, for crying out load.

It does not prohibit a child from talking to a teacher about molestation. The questionnaires already have opt outs. Where in this bill does it enable molesters?

 

[Bucknutz]

It's item #1, for crying out load.

You can opt out of questionnaires and lessons before this bill. Once again how does it enable molesters?

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Except now, they have to inform the parents while the entire process is going on.

The parents always got notified when the school reported molestation. Your straw man is moronic because it pretends no other laws protecting children exist.

F.S. §39.0139: Protecting Children from Sexual Abuse by Those Entrusted with Their Care

The Florida Legislature passed the “Keeping Children Safe Act,” F.S. §39.0139, effective July 1, 2007, in an effort to prevent sexual abuse during visitation pursuant to judicial determinations from those persons the child is ordered to visit. The legislature’s passage of this act acknowledges...

www.floridabar.org

Teachers are mandatory reporters. Teachers are required by law to report any suspected sexual abuse. The law restricts instruction and class room discussion. When a teacher suspects that a student has been sexually abused, that teacher does not say "Billy please show the class where the bad man touched you". Absolutely nothing in this law conveys any sort of secrecy or protection to molesters in the way you are claiming. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read what you wrote. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

 

[Gameface]

The parents always got notified when the school reported molestation. Your straw man is moronic because it pretends no other laws protecting children exist.

F.S. §39.0139: Protecting Children from Sexual Abuse by Those Entrusted with Their Care

The Florida Legislature passed the “Keeping Children Safe Act,” F.S. §39.0139, effective July 1, 2007, in an effort to prevent sexual abuse during visitation pursuant to judicial determinations from those persons the child is ordered to visit. The legislature’s passage of this act acknowledges...

www.floridabar.org

Teachers are mandatory reporters. Teachers are required by law to report any suspected sexual abuse. The law restricts instruction and class room discussion. When a teacher suspects that a student has been sexually abused, that teacher does not say "Billy please show the class where the bad man touched you". Absolutely nothing in this law conveys any sort of secrecy or protection to molesters in the way you are claiming. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read what you wrote. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

I imagine there is a process prior to reporting.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

I imagine there is a process prior to reporting.

Too bad we don't have a JF member who has experience in teaching and/or school administration to provide some insight in these processes.

 

[The Thriller]

But but but recycling old homophobic attacks on the LGBT community equating being gay to being a pedophile really excites my political party’s base that is already drowning in pedophile conspiracy since Covid began (Qanon). And I really really really want to retake the House for the midterms. And I really want to become president of the USA, that would be really cooler than just being the governor of Florida.

I don’t give a **** who I have to hurt. Trans teens? Gay Disney employees? Teachers trying to help? **** them all! I want to boost my political career and I don’t care what conspiracy or homophobic fear I have to indulge to get what I want!

 

[One Brow]

It does not prohibit a child from talking to a teacher about molestation. The questionnaires already have opt outs. Where in this bill does it enable molesters?

It prohibits the teachers from talking to the child without parental permission.

"adopt procedures for notifying a 68 student's parent if there is a change in the student's services 69 or monitoring related to the student's mental, emotional, or 70 physical health or well-being ".

It allows parents to opt out of any questionnaires, including those for molestation, and tells schools the procedures must include ways to work out issues with parents.

"The procedures must reinforce the fundamental right of 73 parents to make decisions regarding the upbringing and control 74 of their children by requiring school district personnel to 75 encourage a student to discuss issues relating to his or her 76 well-being with his or her parent"

Just imagine: 'Mom/Dad, the school said I need to talk to you about our special game".

You can opt out of questionnaires and lessons before this bill.

What you linked was not a questionnaire, it was curriculum.

Once again how does it enable molesters?

Any process that strengthens parental rights will strengthen the rights of bad parents and abusive parents.

However, if you don't see the problem by now, you just don't want to.

 

[One Brow]

The parents always got notified when the school reported molestation. Your straw man is moronic because it pretends no other laws protecting children exist.

I'm aware other laws exist, which does not change what *this* law. Still, since you've decided to move on from this law says to other laws, I'll accept your concession on this law.

Teachers are mandatory reporters. Teachers are required by law to report any suspected sexual abuse.

Agreed.

The law restricts instruction and class room discussion.

That rather limits the opportunity to discuss these matters.

When a teacher suspects that a student has been sexually abused, that teacher does not say "Billy please show the class where the bad man touched you".

I would hope not. I would much prefer they followed the recommended procedures (thanks to this law, after getting parental approval, of course).

Absolutely nothing in this law conveys any sort of secrecy or protection to molesters in the way you are claiming.

Not explicitly.

Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read what you wrote. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

I laugh at your attempts at diminution.

 

[One Brow]

It's hard to believe the "Patriots Aris" video in this link is not a parody.

Patriots Arise: Multiple GOP Candidates Appeared at a QAnon Conference | Right Wing Watch

A gathering of far-right conspiracy theorists took place in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, last weekend for an event called "Patriots Arise." Organized by

www.rightwingwatch.org

 

[Bucknutz]

It prohibits the teachers from talking to the child without parental permission.

"adopt procedures for notifying a 68 student's parent if there is a change in the student's services 69 or monitoring related to the student's mental, emotional, or 70 physical health or well-being ".

It allows parents to opt out of any questionnaires, including those for molestation, and tells schools the procedures must include ways to work out issues with parents.

"The procedures must reinforce the fundamental right of 73 parents to make decisions regarding the upbringing and control 74 of their children by requiring school district personnel to 75 encourage a student to discuss issues relating to his or her 76 well-being with his or her parent"

Just imagine: 'Mom/Dad, the school said I need to talk to you about our special game".


What you linked was not a questionnaire, it was curriculum.


Any process that strengthens parental rights will strengthen the rights of bad parents and abusive parents.

However, if you don't see the problem by now, you just don't want to.

@One Brow you just quoted the bill line 68,69 and 70 and not one line stated that the teacher is prohibited from talking to the child “without parental permission”. It talks about creating a procedure to notify a parent. You still cannot point out in the bill where a teacher cannot talk to the student about molestation.

Next, the linked opt out is for any part of the curriculum including any questionnaires or surveys. Many schools do not have these types of questionnaires.

The largest and most comprehensive report on sexual abuse shows almost 10% of k-12 students are victims of sexual misconduct by school employees and 66% of those suffered physical sexual abuse.
https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf

This number is 100x’s greater than the physical abuse committed by Catholic Priests…sickening
https://www.edweek.org/leadership/sexual-abuse-by-educators-is-scrutinized/2004/03

In 2014 GAO reported a warning that public school employees were “grooming” students “with the intent to perpetrate future sexual abuse or misconduct”
https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-14-42.pdf
At the time of the report only 15 states have policies to regulate “grooming behaviors”. So Florida is not alone in this fight of school employee sexual abuse and grooming.
Grooming “usually employed by a family member or someone else in the victim’s circle of trust, such as a coach, teacher or youth group or others who naturally have some interaction with the victim.”

https://www.rainn.org/news/grooming-know-warning-signs
"Trust development and keeping secrets: Abusers attempt to gain trust of a potential victim through gifts, attention, sharing “secrets” and other means to make them feel that they have a caring relationship and to train them to keep the relationship secret."

Just imagine “Little Billie/Barbara, lets just keep this special game we play to ourselves don’t tell your parents”

Also 60% of children who are sexually abused are abused by people the family trusts. 30% are abused by family members (parents and siblings).
So having this bill “adopt a procedure to inform parents” of their child’s well-being, doesn’t sound like an enabler bill when majority of abuses are from other people, including a very high percentage of school employees.

Maybe you don’t see the real problem…or you don’t want to.

 

[One Brow]

@One Brow you just quoted the bill line 68,69 and 70 and not one line stated that the teacher is prohibited from talking to the child “without parental permission”. It talks about creating a procedure to notify a parent. You still cannot point out in the bill where a teacher cannot talk to the student about molestation.

I was hoping you'd actually read the bill yourself. There's a difference between "cannot" and "have not".

6. Before administering a student well-being questionnaire 115 or health screening form to a student in kindergarten through 116 grade 3, the school district must provide the questionnaire or 117 health screening form to the parent and obtain the permission of 118 the parent.

Incase the type is too small for your eyes, "must ... obtain the permission of the parent. "

Next, the linked opt out is for any part of the curriculum including any questionnaires or surveys. Many schools do not have these types of questionnaires.

Again, that's different from a procedure for suspected molestation, unless you saying opting out of curriculum also opts you out of teachers being able to conduct investigations.

The largest and most comprehensive report on sexual abuse shows almost 10% of k-12 students are victims of sexual misconduct by school employees and 66% of those suffered physical sexual abuse.
https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf

This number is 100x’s greater than the physical abuse committed by Catholic Priests…sickening
https://www.edweek.org/leadership/sexual-abuse-by-educators-is-scrutinized/2004/03

???

Gorey and Leslie (1997), in a review of prevalence studies where they controlled for response rates and operational definitions concluded that 15 percent of women and 7 percent of men were sexually abused as children.

Your saying every abused kid was abused by a school employee?

Were you referring to this question?

During your whole school life, how often, if at all, has anyone (this includes students, teachers, other school employees, or anyone else) done the following things to you when you did not want them to?

That had 10%, but:

Of students who experienced any kind of sexual misconduct in schools, 21 percent were targets of educators, while the remaining 79 percent were targets of other students.

So, that takes it down to 2%, which is still far too many, but at about the same rate as Catholics (considering Catholics are only 20% of the US population).
https://www.edweek.org/leadership/sexual-abuse-by-educators-is-scrutinized/2004/03

In 2014 GAO reported a warning that public school employees were “grooming” students “with the intent to perpetrate future sexual abuse or misconduct”
https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-14-42.pdf

I don't think anyone questions that it happens at all.
https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-14-42.pdf

At the time of the report only 15 states have policies to regulate “grooming behaviors”. So Florida is not alone in this fight of school employee sexual abuse and grooming.

Name one thing this Florida bill does to prevent educators grooming students. I'd really like to know. I'm sure you're not so dumb as to think grooming occurs in front of a class of 20-30 students. Further, this bill does not claim to address grooming/molestation/etc. in any fashion at all. That's red meat being thrown at you so you'll stop thinking about what the law says or means. The bill claims it's about parental rights.

Grooming “usually employed by a family member or someone else in the victim’s circle of trust, such as a coach, teacher or youth group or others who naturally have some interaction with the victim.”

Again, just a red herring when discussing this bill.

So having this bill “adopt a procedure to inform parents” of their child’s well-being, doesn’t sound like an enabler biller when majority of abuses are from other people, including a very high percentage of school employees.

Check again. The majority of abuse of young children comes from the family.

Among other places:

https://www.ywca.org/wp-content/uploads/WWV-CSA-Fact-Sheet-Final.pdf

The younger the victim, the more likely it is that the abuser is a family member. Of those molesting a child under six, 50 percent were family members. Family members also accounted for 23 percent of those abusing children ages 12 to 17.

Maybe you don’t see the real problem…or you don’t want to.

I see it just fine.