The Non-Jazz NBA Thread in the Jazz Section

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don't claim to be a QB whisperer, but it's comical how Zach Wilson's final year + some clips on an empty field made him the #2 pick. That schedule was he worst of the worst, and when they did actually play a decent team the lost and Wilson looked lost. I thought Jaren Hall was a more impressive QB tbh.

I'm not a QB whisperer either but I think I'm okayish at spotting the guys who "ain't it" quickly. He was one that I thought was maybe a career backup type but if he was the guy you were grooming to be a starter you were in trouble.

To be fair I hear the Jets line is awful and nothing will destroy an offense quite like a ****** offensive line.

 

[fishonjazz]

I don't claim to be a QB whisperer, but it's comical how Zach Wilson's final year + some clips on an empty field made him the #2 pick. That schedule was he worst of the worst, and when they did actually play a decent team the lost and Wilson looked lost. I thought Jaren Hall was a more impressive QB tbh.

You should look up josh allens schedule/opponents and his stats if you want to be underwhelmed.

Fwiw the one game that zach wilson lost that season was against another undefeated ranked team that byu found out that they would play on the monday of game week and had to leave for travel that wednesday (the equipment bus didnt even arrive until gameday). Wilson had 300 yards of offense that game and his receiver (dax milne) came one yard shy of winning the game on the final play. But ya, it wasnt his best game.

His stats that year were: 73.5 completion %, 3,692 yards (he was sitting in a lot of 4th quarters or just handing the ball off due to blowouts), 33 td’s and 3 interceptions. QBR of 196.4. Yes the schedule was craptastic but byu isnt some powerhouse school full of 4 and 5 star wide receivers and running backs and o lineman either.

Josh allen best season: 56% completion, 3203 yards, 28 td’s and 15 ints. 144.9 QBR.

Their rushing numbers were about the same (wilson had more td’s and allen had more yards)

Allens schedule was complete trash too (got his *** kicked by BYU that year too).

Both played crap schedules. Both had amazing physical tools. One put up great stats and a great record against the crap schedule. One went to the jets.

Jordan love too. Horrible schedule. QBR of 129.4. 20 td and 17 int.

Maybe if wilson goes to green bay and sits behind rogers or goes to the bills or gets take. By the 49ers and sits behind garapolo (like brock purdy) then maybe things would look different. Or maybe he would still suck.

 

[KqWIN]

You should look up josh allens schedule/opponents and his stats if you want to be underwhelmed.

Fwiw the one game that zach wilson lost that season was against another undefeated ranked team that byu found out that they would play on the monday of game week and had to leave for travel that wednesday (the equipment bus didnt even arrive until gameday). Wilson had 300 yards of offense that game and his receiver (dax milne) came one yard shy of winning the game on the final play. But ya, it wasnt his best game.

His stats that year were: 73.5 completion %, 3,692 yards (he was sitting in a lot of 4th quarters or just handing the ball off due to blowouts), 33 td’s and 3 interceptions. QBR of 196.4. Yes the schedule was craptastic but byu isnt some powerhouse school full of 4 and 5 star wide receivers and running backs and o lineman either.

Josh allen best season: 56% completion, 3203 yards, 28 td’s and 15 ints. 144.9 QBR.

Their rushing numbers were about the same (wilson had more td’s and allen had more yards)

Allens schedule was complete trash too (got his *** kicked by BYU that year too).

Both played crap schedules. Both had amazing physical tools. One put up great stats and a great record against the crap schedule. One went to the jets.

BYU was overwhelmingly more talented than almost every team they played, same could not be said for Josh Allen. Wilson wasn't even good his first two season and was only good one he got the cupcake schedule in the covid year where BYU was not only significantly better than everyone else, but they almost always had more games than everyone else too. I thought it went without saying, but a schedule's difficulty is obviously relative to each team.

Also, the physical tools are not comparable. It's laughable to make that comparison.

 

[fishonjazz]

BYU was overwhelmingly more talented than almost every team they played, same could not be said for Josh Allen. Wilson wasn't even good his first two season and was only good one he got the cupcake schedule in the covid year where BYU was not only significantly better than everyone else, but they almost always had more games than everyone else too. I thought it went without saying, but a schedule's difficulty is obviously relative to each team.

Also, the physical tools are not comparable. It's laughable to make that comparison.

You should look up joran love too. Brock purdy too. Plus a bunch of others.

Lol at saying byu is way better than all those team. They lose to libertys and east carolinas on the regular. Struggle against portland states. His numbers were phenomenal. 33 td and 3 int with that passer rating is tough to achieve regardless of schedule. Again, jordan had a garbage schedule and had 20 td and 17 int and a horrendous passer rating. Its laughable for you to just be like “byu was way better than everyone they played” and not give any credit to the qb who played his *** off. You should look at his backups numbers that year (who got a lot of snaps). His numbers should be just as good since it was against the same opponents right?

Do you think situations matter at all in the nfl? Do you think getting drafted by the jets and thrown to the fire on a horrendous team is the same as the situation jordan love, brock purdy, and josh allen went to? Do you think that flacco and aaron rogers are also as bad of QB’s as wilson or do you think the jets made them worse?

For a non qb whisperer you seem to think you know more than nfl scouts.

I didnt say their physical tools were comparable. I said they both have great physical tools. Comparing their actual production would be laughable though.

 

[KqWIN]

I'm not a QB whisperer either but I think I'm okayish at spotting the guys who "ain't it" quickly. He was one that I thought was maybe a career backup type but if he was the guy you were grooming to be a starter you were in trouble.

To be fair I hear the Jets line is awful and nothing will destroy an offense quite like a ****** offensive line.

Yeah...I feel like it's not too difficult to see the "NFL QB" stuff even when they aren't the best in college. Who knows how Jordan Love will do going forward, but even if he fails I kinda understand why he was a top QB prospect even after a rough final season at Utah State. Not all of them work out, but it's easy for even a more casual fan to "get it".

Zach Wilson.....I feel like people were obsessing over the fact that he was making side arm throws that Mahomes and Lamar were making. Again, not a QB whisperer, but it all seemed very "flavor of the month" to me where every blogger wanted to make an article or video about it. But he didn't seem like some insane talent on the field and he was pretty mediocre up until the cupcake schedule. I guess it doesn't surprise me that he got drafted but it was kinda wild for me to see that he got drafted so high. Compared to other recent QB's in the state I don't he was more impressive than Love or Jaren Hall. He had some skills, but in the same way Tyler Huntley had some skills.

But maybe I'm just biased because some of the more vivid memories I have of Zach Wilson was throwing touchdowns to the Utes. Anytime that dude was under pressure he would just chuck it up and people have said that about him even in HS.

 

[fishonjazz]

Yeah...I feel like it's not too difficult to see the "NFL QB" stuff even when they aren't the best in college. Who knows how Jordan Love will do going forward, but even if he fails I kinda understand why he was a top QB prospect even after a rough final season at Utah State. Not all of them work out, but it's easy for even a more casual fan to "get it".

Zach Wilson.....I feel like people were obsessing over the fact that he was making side arm throws that Mahomes and Lamar were making. Again, not a QB whisperer, but it all seemed very "flavor of the month" to me where every blogger wanted to make an article or video about it. But he didn't seem like some insane talent on the field and he was pretty mediocre up until the cupcake schedule. I guess it doesn't surprise me that he got drafted but it was kinda wild for me to see that he got drafted so high. Compared to other recent QB's in the state I don't he was more impressive than Love or Jaren Hall. He had some skills, but in the same way Tyler Huntley had some skills.

But maybe I'm just biased because some of the more vivid memories I have of Zach Wilson was throwing touchdowns to the Utes. Anytime that dude was under pressure he would just chuck it up and people have said that about him even in HS.

He was way more accurate and had a bigger arm than all the dudes in the state you Iisted. Plus is very athletic. Had way way better stats. I know why you are bias. I get it.

 

[KqWIN]

You should look up joran love too. Brock purdy too. Plus a bunch of others.

Lol at saying byu is way better than all those team. They lose to libertys and east carolinas on the regular. Struggle against portland states. His numbers were phenomenal. 33 td and 3 int with that passer rating is tough to achieve regardless of schedule. Again, jordan had a garbage schedule and had 20 td and 17 int and a horrendous passer rating. Its laughable for you to just be like “byu was way better than everyone they played” and not give any credit to the qb who played his *** off. You should look at his backups numbers that year (who got a lot of snaps). His numbers should be just as good since it was against the same opponents right?

Do you think situations matter at all in the nfl? Do you think getting drafted by the jets and thrown to the fire on a horrendous team is the same as the situation jordan love, brock purdy, and josh allen went to? Do you think that flacco and aaron rogers are also as bad of QB’s as wilson or do you think the jets made them worse?

For a non qb whisperer you seem to think you know more than nfl scouts.

I mean sure, Zach Wilson deserves some credit for that season. He was the most important player on that team, but as a whole BYU was far better than everyone else they played. It's just a fact. There was a lot of good talent on that team especially the offense. He did have a good season, but that doesn't mean he deserved to be the #2 pick. Zach Wilson's backup QB was not the #2 pick in the draft, ****ing hilarious to suggest that he should be the #2 guy because he was better than his backup hahaha. Having said that Baylor Romney was better than Zach the year before and if you wanted to extrapolate their career numbers I assure you this "better than the backup" argument will look even worse.

And to your question, of course situations matter. Maybe in a different situation he develops and turns into a decent player. Hell, he could still do that. But it does not change the fact that Zach Wilson was incredibly overrated coming out of BYU. When he's losing the starting job to no name backups like White/Streveler and an ancient Joe Flacco he has to shoulder some of the blame too. He couldn't even beat those guys out....says a lot about his "talent". If you lose your spot to Chris Steveler chances are you are a Trey Lance who couldn't make it work anywhere.

 

[fishonjazz]

as a whole BYU was far better than everyone else they played. It's just a fact.

Incorrect. I mean you can look this stuff up really easy. Look up byu recruiting rankings vs san diego state, boise state, UCF, and Houston. (all teams byu played that year) BYU is a G5 team just like they are. Their recruiting is similar to those teams, The tv contracts are similar. The bowl games byu gets are actually worse. Coach pay is similar or worse. Just because BYU plays USC, Utah, Oregon, Tennessee, etc frequently during independence does not mean that they are anything like those programs. BYU has been a good G5 team. Just like many teams on their schedule that season. Hell, they lost to san diego state in 2019 and 2021. In 2020 it wasn't close. They lost to boise state in 2021 and only won by 3 in 2019. In 2020 it wasn't close. UCF, Houston, Boise state and san diego state are all very similar programs to what BYU was in 2020. That year the combined score of those 4 games was 171-80. Because of Zach Wilson.
But again, I understand why you are biased. I would be too.

Should Utah automatically destroy the San Diego states, ucf's, Boise states, Houston's, and BYU's of the world? Of course they should. They have way better recruits, way better coaches, way more money, etc. BYU doesn't have those advantages though

 

[KqWIN]

Incorrect. I mean you can look this stuff up really easy. Look up byu recruiting rankings vs san diego state, boise state, UCF, and Houston. (all teams byu played that year) BYU is a G5 team just like they are. Their recruiting is similar to those teams, The tv contracts are similar. The bowl games byu gets are actually worse. Coach pay is similar or worse. Just because BYU plays USC, Utah, Oregon, Tennessee, etc frequently during independence does not mean that they are anything like those programs. BYU has been a good G5 team. Just like many teams on their schedule that season. Hell, they lost to san diego state in 2019 and 2021. In 2020 it wasn't close. They lost to boise state in 2021 and only won by 3 in 2019. In 2020 it wasn't close. UCF, Houston, Boise state and san diego state are all very similar programs to what BYU was in 2020. That year the combined score of those 4 games was 171-80. Because of Zach Wilson.
But again, I understand why you are biased. I would be too.

Why list off all these things, it's very easy to see which teams were favored at the time the game was played. BYU was not underdogs in a single game. A team is not their recruiting ranking, their coaches salary, or their TV contract. A team is a good as they are, and that's reflected in the odds. "Far better" might be a bit of hyperbole....but it doesn't change the fact that the schedule was trash. BYU is not some trash football program. It was an easy schedule, and no matter how hard you think it actually was, does not change the fact that he was incredibly overrated.

My bias is that Zach Wilson helped the Ute's in both his matchups by throwing touchdowns to the wrong team. When a guy completely chokes and you see it in person it does change your opinion on him. Jaren Hall, on the other hand, completely ripped the Utes apart. Maybe I'm weighing that too heavily, but when he lost QB battles to guys like Chris Streveler it's pretty obvious that he's not a #2 pick talent. He had no business being a #2 pick, and blaming it all on situation....yeah I suspect you have some bias too.

 

[fishonjazz]

Why list off all these things, it's very easy to see which teams were favored at the time the game was played. BYU was not underdogs in a single game. A team is not their recruiting ranking, their coaches salary, or their TV contract. A team is a good as they are, and that's reflected in the odds. "Far better" might be a bit of hyperbole....but it doesn't change the fact that the schedule was trash. BYU is not some trash football program. It was an easy schedule, and no matter how hard you think it actually was, does not change the fact that he was incredibly overrated.

My bias is that Zach Wilson helped the Ute's in both his matchups by throwing touchdowns to the wrong team. When a guy completely chokes and you see it in person it does change your opinion on him. Jaren Hall, on the other hand, completely ripped the Utes apart. Maybe I'm weighing that too heavily, but when he lost QB battles to guys like Chris Streveler it's pretty obvious that he's not a #2 pick talent. He had no business being a #2 pick, and blaming it all on situation....yeah I suspect you have some bias too.

The reason I pulled all that up is because you were saying that BYU was on another level than all the teams on their schedule that year and that is why Wilson's numbers were so good. Like they were on an unlevel playing field. I was showing you that was untrue.

Now you are saying that the reason Wilson's numbers were so good is because they were favored against their opponents.

So I guess if I were to pull up the numbers of any QB on any team and only cherry pick the games that they were favored in then those qb's numbers should be similar to Wilson's.

Like I wonder what would happen if I Cherry picked all of cam rising, tyler huntly, travis Wilson etc numbers vs all the teams the Utes were favored in and their numbers should be just as good as wilson that season right? Since the opponent is the only reason Wilson played good.

Maybe Wilson actually was a better QB in his Jr year than he was as a freshman or sophomore. I think it's possible for a QB to get better with more experience.

Like I have been saying though, I totally understand your bias. It makes a ton of sense.

 

[KqWIN]

The reason I pulled all that up is because you were saying that BYU was on another level than all the teams on their schedule that year and that is why Wilson's numbers were so good. Like they were on an unlevel playing field. I was showing you that was untrue.

Now you are saying that the reason Wilson's numbers were so good is because they were favored against their opponents.

So I guess if I were to pull up the numbers of any QB on any team and only cherry pick the games that they were favored in then those qb's numbers should be similar to Wilson's.

Like I wonder what would happen if I Cherry picked all of cam rising, tyler huntly, travis Wilson etc numbers vs all the teams the Utes were favored in and their numbers should be just as good as wilson that season right? Since the opponent is the only reason Wilson played good.

Maybe Wilson actually was a better QB in his Jr year than he was as a freshman or sophomore. I think it's possible for a QB to get better with more experience.

Like I have been saying though, I totally understand your bias. It makes a ton of sense.

Rising, Huntley, and Travis Wilson weren’t drafted/won’t be drafted. There’s a big gap between being undrafted and being the #2 pick. I don’t know why you’re so adamant about comparing Wilson to backups and guys that did not get drafted. It’s not a good selling point to compare the #2 pick to his backup or a bad QB like Travis Wilson who could only hope to make the NFL as a TE because he was a bad QB. You have made an arguments as to why he is better than his backups and undrafted QB’s, congrats. I think it’s telling that these are the QB’s you compare Wilson against.

If you want to die on a hill and say that schedule was actually difficult, so be it. I think that the 96th hardest schedule is fairly easy. He was good, but we’re talking about the #2 overall pick here. BYU’s schedule was cupcake littered with overwhelmed opponents. It is what it is. However bad you want to make BYU out to be, they are way better than that.

You also try to extrapolate my arguments in attempt to make them easier to argue against. Stop making up arguments to argue against. I never said the only reason he was good was because it was an easy schedule. I said it was an easy schedule and that’s the truth. Feel free to make up arguments and argue against your self made up arguments, but I am done here.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Cleveland Browns #1 & #4 picks.

After bringing in: QB: Tyrod Taylor WR: Jarvis Landry CB: Damarious Randall If you were the Browns GM what would you do with the #1 & #4 picks? Personally, after watching Kizer for a year I am so excited to have QB that can take care of the football and move the chains. I think if Taylor has...

jazzfanz.com

The Next Great NFL QB Gets His First Start Tonight

Dak Prescott era starts today.

jazzfanz.com

Honestly might be kind of decent at QB scouting tho

 

[HermanG]

QB scouting is the toughest task in sport scouting.

I mean there was real debate about Ryan Leaf vs Peyton Manning back in 98 before the draft. Mahomes was pretty much consensus 3rd best QB in his class behind Trubisky and Watson. Tom Brady being 199th selection, Brock Purdy being mr Irrelevant. JaMarcus Russell being selected #1 as a super hyped prospect who would take over the league (only Megatron beat him in pre-draft consensus mocks).

Its a freaking tall task because of the massive list of critical intangibles involved in that assessment.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

QB scouting is the toughest task in sport scouting.

I mean there was real debate about Ryan Leaf vs Peyton Manning back in 98 before the draft. Mahomes was pretty much consensus 3rd best QB in his class behind Trubisky and Watson. Tom Brady being 199th selection, Brock Purdy being mr Irrelevant. JaMarcus Russell being selected #1 as a super hyped prospect who would take over the league (only Megatron beat him in pre-draft consensus mocks).

Its a freaking tall task because of the massive list of critical intangibles involved in that assessment.

Top talent is definitely less self-evident for NFL QB's coming from college than it is the NBA.

I

 

[Jingled]

Woj says some massive talents could be available next offseason or even at the trade deadline.


View: https://twitter.com/ohnohedidnt24/status/1704211273154478377

 

[fishonjazz]

Rising, Huntley, and Travis Wilson weren’t drafted/won’t be drafted. There’s a big gap between being undrafted and being the #2 pick. I don’t know why you’re so adamant about comparing Wilson to backups and guys that did not get drafted. It’s not a good selling point to compare the #2 pick to his backup or a bad QB like Travis Wilson who could only hope to make the NFL as a TE because he was a bad QB. You have made an arguments as to why he is better than his backups and undrafted QB’s, congrats. I think it’s telling that these are the QB’s you compare Wilson against.

If you want to die on a hill and say that schedule was actually difficult, so be it. I think that the 96th hardest schedule is fairly easy. He was good, but we’re talking about the #2 overall pick here. BYU’s schedule was cupcake littered with overwhelmed opponents. It is what it is. However bad you want to make BYU out to be, they are way better than that.

You also try to extrapolate my arguments in attempt to make them easier to argue against. Stop making up arguments to argue against. I never said the only reason he was good was because it was an easy schedule. I said it was an easy schedule and that’s the truth. Feel free to make up arguments and argue against your self made up arguments, but I am done here.

I never said the schedule wasnt easy silly. I said that byu wasnt the powerhouse playing on an uneven playing field that you made them out to be. They played 4 teams on the same level as byu and whooped their asses. Wilson was just that good that those programs that are on a similar level to byu had no chance.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Woj says some massive talents could be available next offseason or even at the trade deadline.


View: https://twitter.com/ohnohedidnt24/status/1704211273154478377

Guys I can see coming available in that timeframe... admittedly some are not massive.

Jrue Holiday/Giannis/Middleton - think the rebuild for the Bucks is coming.
Brandon Ingram/Zion - Something has to give here imo... money gonna be a problem.
Embiid
Donovan or Garland... almost surely will be Donvan though.
Kyrie... just cause.
PG and Kawhi... they FA and stuff so could be available
Lavine or Derozan or both

 

[SoberasHotRod]

Guys I can see coming available in that timeframe... admittedly some are not massive.

Jrue Holiday/Giannis/Middleton - think the rebuild for the Bucks is coming.
Brandon Ingram/Zion - Something has to give here imo... money gonna be a problem.
Embiid
Donovan or Garland... almost surely will be Donvan though.
Kyrie... just cause.
PG and Kawhi... they FA and stuff so could be available
Lavine or Derozan or both

You forgot Luka, we're monitoring that situation

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

You forgot Luka, we're monitoring that situation

I didn't forget him... that one is more than a year away imo. I'd be somewhat shocked to see him moved in the next12-14 months. Maybe be the 24-25 trade deadline if things have gone very very wrong.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

I didn't forget him... that one is more than a year away imo. I'd be somewhat shocked to see him moved in the next12-14 months. Maybe be the 24-25 trade deadline if things have gone very very wrong.

Probably true, but if they are a dumpster fire this year then I could see him asking out. If Kyrie/Luka doesn’t work, and it's not looking great so far, then that team has a rough looking future.