The Non-Jazz NBA Thread in the Jazz Section

[Handlogten's Heros]

"Yeah, they may be better than Oni but that's just a hindsight bias. There was no way of knowing that before."

You forgot that none of them would fit our system.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

And to be clear we don't have a "need" at the moment for these types of guys... the issue is they get snapped up early so when you do end up having a need there is slim pickings on the market.

We won't learn anything about Oni in the next few weeks that would change our mind... So may as well make a change early. Covid gonna hit us and some of these dudes gonna have to play I guess... so maybe he comes and blows the roof off... or he will look scared and do the "try not to screw up" style offense that seems to plague our young guys.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

One thing that has been bothering me a bit watching some other teams... Our young guys play so scared over the last few years. Donovan was obviously an exception but it seems like our players are so scared to eff up that they don't really give us anything good. I'm not sure if it is Quin, the system being tough to run, or just that they aren't that good. Its weird to see guys go play with Brooklyn and other teams and seem so confident.

Forrest has started to be more confident but had some issues imo earlier this year with not looking at the rim at all... just seemed like he didn't want to mess up and get yanked. It may just be that the guys we've picked the last few years are just not that great.

 

[KqWIN]

One thing that has been bothering me a bit watching some other teams... Our young guys play so scared over the last few years. Donovan was obviously an exception but it seems like our players are so scared to eff up that they don't really give us anything good. I'm not sure if it is Quin, the system being tough to run, or just that they aren't that good. Its weird to see guys go play with Brooklyn and other teams and seem so confident.

Forrest has started to be more confident but had some issues imo earlier this year with not looking at the rim at all... just seemed like he didn't want to mess up and get yanked. It may just be that the guys we've picked the last few years are just not that great.

Meh...we're talking about mostly undrafted/second round pick guys who are being inserted into a well established rotation where there's not enough shots and touches to go around in the first place. It doesn't surprise me that it happens. It's one thing to step in and play 3 minutes where you're likely to blow out the team because your teammates are way better. Completely different if there's no pressure to win, your team has to play you by default, and/or there's not enough people to handle the ball and take shots.

In almost every game situation where a young player has played, it's most helpful to the team to take a backseat. The talent difference between the guys in rotation and out of rotation is huge,. JC might be the worst player in our top 9, and he was 6MOY last year. Forrest is way above average for a two-way guy, but when he steps onto the court and JC is the next worst teammate of course he's going to be hesitant. Don't think it has much to do with Quin. More to do with the team/game situation that is available.

I generally think Quin has done a great job over the years of building up and developing guys on the fringes despite being a winning team, but this roster in particular is just insane in terms of talent. But with that in mind, maybe it does give credence to the idea that the guys we have simply aren't that good.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Meh...we're talking about mostly undrafted/second round pick guys who are being inserted into a well established rotation where there's not enough shots and touches to go around in the first place. It doesn't surprise me that it happens. It's one thing to step in and play 3 minutes where you're likely to blow out the team because your teammates are way better. Completely different if there's no pressure to win, your team has to play you by default, and/or there's not enough people to handle the ball and take shots.

In almost every game situation where a young player has played, it's most helpful to the team to take a backseat. The talent difference between the guys in rotation and out of rotation is huge,. JC might be the worst player in our top 9, and he was 6MOY last year. Forrest is way above average for a two-way guy, but when he steps onto the court and JC is the next worst teammate of course he's going to be hesitant. Don't think it has much to do with Quin. More to do with the team/game situation that is available.

I generally think Quin has done a great job over the years of building up and developing guys on the fringes despite being a winning team, but this roster in particular is just insane in terms of talent. But with that in mind, maybe it does give credence to the idea that the guys we have simply aren't that good.

I think that is part of it. I’m thinking back to Exum days too but he always looked scared out there. Allen was almost unplayable because his defense was so bad. I was just watching McBride, Christopher, and thinking of Ayo and some other rookies and just the confidence/bravado they play with is kinda amazing. Brooklyn has a bunch of dudes playing that look confident too…we haven’t had a lot to work with or a lot of time to give them so not trying to complain… just an observation that i have been wondering about. Nets may be doing something there… either coach or KD… because they seem to get a lot out of some of these guys. Maybe just good scouting but it’s pretty impressive.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

One thing that has been bothering me a bit watching some other teams... Our young guys play so scared over the last few years. Donovan was obviously an exception but it seems like our players are so scared to eff up that they don't really give us anything good. I'm not sure if it is Quin, the system being tough to run, or just that they aren't that good. Its weird to see guys go play with Brooklyn and other teams and seem so confident.

Forrest has started to be more confident but had some issues imo earlier this year with not looking at the rim at all... just seemed like he didn't want to mess up and get yanked. It may just be that the guys we've picked the last few years are just not that great.

I think it's the system. I think players have a hard time figuring out when to shoot/pass/drive and they overthink things. Doesnt help that most of our end of bench guys just arent that talented. Oni has no ball skills to speak of. Forrest has a severely limited jumpshot. I dont think Butler has looked scared when he has played.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think it's the system. I think players have a hard time figuring out when to shoot/pass/drive and they overthink things. Doesnt help that most of our end of bench guys just arent that talented. Oni has no ball skills to speak of. Forrest has a severely limited jumpshot. I dont think Butler has looked scared when he has played.

Maybe not scared but JB looks like he's thinking and I think it manifested itself in missed shots early (that normally would fall). it reminds me of watching my niece play with her hs team and AAU. They never play pickup so they have very few girls that "just play". They all run to their spot without really figuring out what is going on and reading the court. They know they are supposed to go to this spot and make this pass but half the time that pass isn't available and they have a wide open shot.

 

[KqWIN]

I think that is part of it. I’m thinking back to Exum days too but he always looked scared out there. Allen was almost unplayable because his defense was so bad. I was just watching McBride, Christopher, and thinking of Ayo and some other rookies and just the confidence/bravado they play with is kinda amazing. Brooklyn has a bunch of dudes playing that look confident too…we haven’t had a lot to work with or a lot of time to give them so not trying to complain… just an observation that i have been wondering about. Nets may be doing something there… either coach or KD… because they seem to get a lot out of some of these guys. Maybe just good scouting but it’s pretty impressive.

Yeah...I think Exum is kind of the poster child for a guy who looked scared out there, but to me it wasn't a Quin thing. Exum is my favorite player, but he simply wasn't that good and his injuries kept him from developing. Once he was off the Jazz he never got the opportunity to have the ball like he did here. Same for Hood. I actually think Quin has a decent record of empowering and developing players. It's pretty natural for guys to step into a winning situation, especially if they were not super confident players to begin with. I would put the team/game situations and talent level before Quin.

BKN is obviously kind of down and out right now because of Covid, but they create the situation where guys can step in and play free because they don't seem to care about the regular season. They do it the right way and rest their players often. They get the added benefits of rest and I actually think it makes their main guys more sharp when they do play. I think it's normal for guys to get complacent when they're winning so easily and resting is actually a good way to avoid bad habits. You're less likely to lay an egg if you're only playing 4 out of 5 games. It felt like the Jazz dropped a couple games by being lazy and their response was to go with no rest. I think the opposite is much better for a lot of reasons.

I like what BKN is doing with their pickups. I probably would have taken a flier on a younger player instead of going with 3 vets, but I think the 3 vets are all decent bets. Shaq is the one that especially has me thinking "we should have just waived Oni and done that ourselves". Dunn obviously getting more talk now, but I think Shaq is the better bet. There are no questions about his health and he was playing pretty well in the G-League.

 

[infection]

Yeah...I think Exum is kind of the poster child for a guy who looked scared out there, but to me it wasn't a Quin thing. Exum is my favorite player, but he simply wasn't that good and his injuries kept him from developing. Once he was off the Jazz he never got the opportunity to have the ball like he did here. Same for Hood. I actually think Quin has a decent record of empowering and developing players. It's pretty natural for guys to step into a winning situation, especially if they were not super confident players to begin with. I would put the team/game situations and talent level before Quin.

BKN is obviously kind of down and out right now because of Covid, but they create the situation where guys can step in and play free because they don't seem to care about the regular season. They do it the right way and rest their players often. They get the added benefits of rest and I actually think it makes their main guys more sharp when they do play. I think it's normal for guys to get complacent when they're winning so easily and resting is actually a good way to avoid bad habits. You're less likely to lay an egg if you're only playing 4 out of 5 games. It felt like the Jazz dropped a couple games by being lazy and their response was to go with no rest. I think the opposite is much better for a lot of reasons.

I like what BKN is doing with their pickups. I probably would have taken a flier on a younger player instead of going with 3 vets, but I think the 3 vets are all decent bets. Shaq is the one that especially has me thinking "we should have just waived Oni and done that ourselves". Dunn obviously getting more talk now, but I think Shaq is the better bet. There are no questions about his health and he was playing pretty well in the G-League.

Yeah...I think Exum is kind of the poster child for a guy who looked scared out there, but to me it wasn't a Quin thing. Exum is my favorite player, but he simply wasn't that good and his injuries kept him from developing. Once he was off the Jazz he never got the opportunity to have the ball like he did here. Same for Hood. I actually think Quin has a decent record of empowering and developing players. It's pretty natural for guys to step into a winning situation, especially if they were not super confident players to begin with. I would put the team/game situations and talent level before Quin.

BKN is obviously kind of down and out right now because of Covid, but they create the situation where guys can step in and play free because they don't seem to care about the regular season. They do it the right way and rest their players often. They get the added benefits of rest and I actually think it makes their main guys more sharp when they do play. I think it's normal for guys to get complacent when they're winning so easily and resting is actually a good way to avoid bad habits. You're less likely to lay an egg if you're only playing 4 out of 5 games. It felt like the Jazz dropped a couple games by being lazy and their response was to go with no rest. I think the opposite is much better for a lot of reasons.

I like what BKN is doing with their pickups. I probably would have taken a flier on a younger player instead of going with 3 vets, but I think the 3 vets are all decent bets. Shaq is the one that especially has me thinking "we should have just waived Oni and done that ourselves". Dunn obviously getting more talk now, but I think Shaq is the better bet. There are no questions about his health and he was playing pretty well in the G-League.

There’s a track record there of Quin not playing him, to the point that we waived him. The same could be said as a possible concern regarding Dunn, but at least Dunn is an experienced guy who’s been rotational (starter) and played real minutes. There was Ersan that was a real vet that Quin didn’t play, but I’m trying to think of other real vets that Quin hasn’t played.

 

[LogGrad98]

One thing that has been bothering me a bit watching some other teams... Our young guys play so scared over the last few years. Donovan was obviously an exception but it seems like our players are so scared to eff up that they don't really give us anything good. I'm not sure if it is Quin, the system being tough to run, or just that they aren't that good. Its weird to see guys go play with Brooklyn and other teams and seem so confident.

Forrest has started to be more confident but had some issues imo earlier this year with not looking at the rim at all... just seemed like he didn't want to mess up and get yanked. It may just be that the guys we've picked the last few years are just not that great.

Sure doesn't help this impression that there is a perception, among the fans at least, that Quin will yank you and send you down if you miss your mark once in garbage time. He needs to lengthen the leash a bit on these guys so they can play free.

 

[KqWIN]

There’s a track record there of Quin not playing him, to the point that we waived him. The same could be said as a possible concern regarding Dunn, but at least Dunn is an experienced guy who’s been rotational (starter) and played real minutes. There was Ersan that was a real vet that Quin didn’t play, but I’m trying to think of other real vets that Quin hasn’t played.

Ed Davis. I don't think Quin has a bias towards vets, more than any other coach at least. Just so happens that if there's a vets are more likely to be better players than fringe players. We don't typically bring in vets for their veteran presence.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yeah...I think Exum is kind of the poster child for a guy who looked scared out there, but to me it wasn't a Quin thing. Exum is my favorite player, but he simply wasn't that good and his injuries kept him from developing. Once he was off the Jazz he never got the opportunity to have the ball like he did here. Same for Hood. I actually think Quin has a decent record of empowering and developing players. It's pretty natural for guys to step into a winning situation, especially if they were not super confident players to begin with. I would put the team/game situations and talent level before Quin.

BKN is obviously kind of down and out right now because of Covid, but they create the situation where guys can step in and play free because they don't seem to care about the regular season. They do it the right way and rest their players often. They get the added benefits of rest and I actually think it makes their main guys more sharp when they do play. I think it's normal for guys to get complacent when they're winning so easily and resting is actually a good way to avoid bad habits. You're less likely to lay an egg if you're only playing 4 out of 5 games. It felt like the Jazz dropped a couple games by being lazy and their response was to go with no rest. I think the opposite is much better for a lot of reasons.

I like what BKN is doing with their pickups. I probably would have taken a flier on a younger player instead of going with 3 vets, but I think the 3 vets are all decent bets. Shaq is the one that especially has me thinking "we should have just waived Oni and done that ourselves". Dunn obviously getting more talk now, but I think Shaq is the better bet. There are no questions about his health and he was playing pretty well in the G-League.

They had some young guys really perform last year too. I think they are either good at drafting, good at scouting, or are giving guys some freedom to succeed. Just something that has caught my eye a bit.