The official "let's impeach Trump" thread

[infection]

Don't worry about if don jr were in this position.
Just stick with what's happening instead.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

I’m worrying about what Trump did as much I’d be worrying about it if Clinton had done it. If you think that’s bias speaking, check out my posting history regarding Clinton or any Obama posts from when he was in office. I believe the retort would be that “well, duh, Clinton and Obama never did anything like this,” which I’d have to suggest may be someone else’s bias speaking.

Bottom line is that there’s a certain level of priming that’s happening, just like conservatives have their own priming that’s led them to believe all sorts of things that never came into fruition. If you don’t see this as a monumental crisis then it’s presumed that you’re just a partisan rube. There are of plenty of people on the left who are frustrated with the nonsense being paraded around because it is distracting from Trump’s worst policies, and this quote from an article today from Aaron Mate [progressive, not a conservative] probably highlights it best:

https://www.thenation.com/article/ukraine-scandal-democrats/

In Washington, elites generally face consequences for the harm they cause not to the general population but to other members of the club. The standard was laid bare in Watergate, when Richard Nixon faced impeachment not for mass murder in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos, but for targeting the opposing elite faction and trying to cover it up. George W. Bush surely could have been impeached over the Iraq invasion if not for the fact that his crime against humanity was carried out with bipartisan support.

In the era of Trump, prominent Democratic and media figures have shaped their “Resistance” around the imperatives of the national security state and hostility to Trump’s occasional deviations. That is what gave us Russiagate, where US intelligence officials suspected Trump of being a Russian agent for breaking with bipartisan hostility toward Moscow. Ukrainegate also originates with the national security state. Its whistle-blower hails from the CIA, and his sources occupy nearby perches, including inside the White House. The prevailing concern is not just Trump’s alleged corruption but also, in the words of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, that “Russia has a hand in this.”

Their outcry presupposes that Trump endangered Ukraine and emboldened Russia by pausing the military assistance. In reality, US military aid has prolonged a disastrous proxy war with Russia that has claimed thousands of lives. It has also empowered far-right forces in Ukraine who have benefited from the US military assistance that Trump briefly froze. It was a concern for this very outcome that prompted President Obama to resist intense pressure to send that same military aid. Trump reversed Obama’s decision after facing the same Beltway pressure—with the added weight of contemporaneous allegations that he was not only soft on Russia but also its accomplice. The warning of former National Security Council member Charles Kupchan in August 2017 that sending “lethal weapons to Ukraine is a recipe for military escalation and transatlantic discord” has proven to be tragically prescient.

 

[Zombie]

I’m assuming the investigation into Burisma must have then surely picked up with Shokin’s ouster, no?

According to this, yes in fact the investigation did pick up, and after months of renewed investigation it was closed pending outstanding fines and taxes be paid by Burisma.

https://www.kyivpost.com/business-w...ment-agencies-paid-full-outstanding-fees.html

I think Biden actually should have sat this one out, because as you point out, his involvement could end up with Ukraine getting mixed signals, and undermine his efforts.

If you have a problem with the ludicrous sums of money large companies pay members of their board, I agree with this also! I wonder if you think we should apply that standard to US companies as well.

 

[infection]

According to this, yes in fact the investigation did pick up, and after months of renewed investigation it was closed pending outstanding fines and taxes be paid by Burisma.

https://www.kyivpost.com/business-w...ment-agencies-paid-full-outstanding-fees.html

I think Biden actually should have sat this one out, because as you point out, his involvement could end up with Ukraine getting mixed signals, and undermine his efforts.

If you have a problem with the ludicrous sums of money large companies pay members of their board, I agree with this also! I wonder if you think we should apply that standard to US companies as well.

So it sounds like they got away with just having to pay the equivalent of about $7M in taxes that they owed. Article states that outside of that they paid about $205M in taxes over 2 years. So not a bad punishment. Sounds like the kind of thing you’d pay a $50k/month insurance premium for.

All that aside, I’m not here for #Biden4Prison! or #****thiscorrupt****these****inglibs!! I don’t even think Biden’s possible shadiness is the biggest thing facing our country. But if this were Trump and Don Jr., with a President Hillary Clinton talking to Ukraine, nobody would be giving two ****s about what Clinton did and the call on Trump wouldn’t be about whether he did it or committed treason, but whether or not he should be hung. This would be the biggest cable news story on the planet. But since the characters are currently cast in different parts of this play, the Democrats are playing the hand dealt. Hard to say this judgement is not impacted by a 3-year foreplay that promised an epic climax but delivered a hospitalizable case of blue balls.

 

[Zombie]

So it sounds like they got away with just having to pay the equivalent of about $7M in taxes that they owed. Article states that outside of that they paid about $205M in taxes over 2 years. So not a bad punishment. Sounds like the kind of thing you’d pay a $50k/month insurance premium for.

All that aside, I’m not here for #Biden4Prison! or #****thiscorrupt****these****inglibs!! I don’t even think Biden’s possible shadiness is the biggest thing facing our country. But if this were Trump and Don Jr., with a President Hillary Clinton talking to Ukraine, nobody would be giving two ****s about what Clinton did and the call on Trump wouldn’t be about whether he did it or committed treason, but whether or not he should be hung. This would be the biggest cable news story on the planet. But since the characters are currently cast in different parts of this play, the Democrats are playing the hand dealt. Hard to say this judgement is not impacted by a 3-year foreplay that was cut off right before climax.

Well, neither of us are privy to the facts in this case so there's really no way to judge whether or not the fines were appropriate or not. At this point it just seems like you are simply positing theories that align with your preconceived notions of wrongdoing. There were lots of examples of Shokin's corruption that led the entire western world to push for his ouster. This wasn't just a story about the Bidens and Burisma, but it's being boiled down to that by those who's goal is to tarnish Biden's reputation. It's pretty transparent tbh.

I'm not going to engage in counterfactuals, except to point out that the idea that no one would care about Trump's actions if they were done by Hillary is so ludicrously untrue it is kind of funny you used her as an example.

Trump's actions would be unthinkable in any presidency, regardless of party affiliation.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Except there wasn’t corruption, and we have our own intelligence for that, and they found something rather different that doesn’t conveniently align with your beliefs.

Feel free to have a single thought of your own, though.

 

[Hotdog]

I’m worrying about what Trump did as much I’d be worrying about it if Clinton had done it. If you think that’s bias speaking, check out my posting history regarding Clinton or any Obama posts from when he was in office. I believe the retort would be that “well, duh, Clinton and Obama never did anything like this,” which I’d have to suggest may be someone else’s bias speaking.

Bottom line is that there’s a certain level of priming that’s happening, just like conservatives have their own priming that’s led them to believe all sorts of things that never came into fruition. If you don’t see this as a monumental crisis then it’s presumed that you’re just a partisan rube. There are of plenty of people on the left who are frustrated with the nonsense being paraded around because it is distracting from Trump’s worst policies, and this quote from an article today from Aaron Mate [progressive, not a conservative] probably highlights it best:

https://www.thenation.com/article/ukraine-scandal-democrats/

You can catch Aaron Mate on the Jimmy Dore show on youtube. Pretty good show. They are some of the few progressives out there that arent bat **** crazy and hypnotized by propaganda. Plenty of Trump bashing for those who love it. But they do a pretty good job of being fair on that show.

 

[Hotdog]

Except there wasn’t corruption, and we have our own intelligence for that, and they found something rather different that doesn’t conveniently align with your beliefs.

Feel free to have a single thought of your own, though.

Oh, you mean like the thoughts we are told to have? Is that what you mean by thought of your own? I thought not parroting all the left leaning propaganda would be closer to having a thought of my own. But maybe you can tell us what to think.

 

[infection]

Well, neither of us are privy to the facts in this case so there's really no way to judge whether or not the fines were appropriate or not. At this point it just seems like you are simply positing theories that align with your preconceived notions of wrongdoing. There were lots of examples of Shokins corruption that led the entire western world to oush for his ouster. This wasn't just a story about the Bidens and Burisma, but it's being boiled down to that by those who's goal is to tarnish Biden's reputation. It's pretty transparent tbh.

“Neither of us are privy to the facts.” We’re supposed to infer, no? Also, I’m not alleging any of these things. I’m saying what would (easily) be argued if the script was turned upside down.

I'm not going to engage in counterfactuals, except to point out that the idea that no one would care about Trump's actions if they were done by Hillary is so ludicrously untrue it is kind of funny you used her as an example.

Trump's actions would be unthinkable in any presidency, regardless of party affiliation.

My argument isn’t that people would think it’s ok for Hillary to break the law, or collude with other nations to get dirt. It’s that those questions wouldn’t even be relevant. (Steele dossier? Of course that’s not foreign collusion [but the answer to whether it is or not depends on which side of the dive you’re on.]) It’s not whether it’s ok for her to do those things, it’s about the spin of what those things are. If you’re wondering how the left could possibly spin it, just look at how the right is arguing it currently, and that’s what the left would be arguing.

This is like officiating of any game. You’re going to view the officiating through the lens of your fandom. As ridiculous as people are in sports, there’s at least a modicum of self-reflection among some in the fan base that don’t want to look like absolute homers. In politics, there’s absolutely no self-reflection. On this forum there’s never been a single controversy on the left. None. They’re all out of context. There’s have also been multiple scandals on the right of corruption and lies. All of them. And vice versa. It’s a statistical anomaly for the ages.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Oh, you mean like the thoughts we are told to have? Is that what you mean by thought of your own? I thought not parroting all the left leaning propaganda would be closer to having a thought of my own. But maybe you can tell us what to think.

You think it’s left because a news organization whose entire mission was to call the media leftist came into existence.

By the way, there are some at that organization that are flabbergasted by Trump and his defenders.

I have a compass that is aligned with facts (or at least the best empirical data we have if that level of precision is important to you). I have no issue having nuanced views, or an allegiance to principle over party. I’ve been a registered independent my entire life and it will stay that way unless there is a tactical reason to change that.

Your boy is a rotten, terrible person.

 

[Zombie]

“Neither of us are privy to the facts.” We’re supposed to infer, no? Also, I’m not alleging any of these things. I’m saying what would (easily) be argued if the script was turned upside down.


My argument isn’t that people would think it’s ok for Hillary to break the law, or collide with other nations to get dirt. It’s that those questions wouldn’t even be relevant. It’s not whether it’s ok for her to do those things, it’s about the spin of what those things are. If you’re wondering how the left could possibly spin it, just look at how the right is arguing it currently, and that’s what the left would be arguing.

This is like officiating of any game. You’re going to view the officiating through the lens of your fandom. As ridiculous as people are in sports, there’s at least a modicum of self-reflection among some in the fan base that don’t want to look like absolute homers. In politics, there’s absolutely no self-reflection. On this forum there’s never been a single controversy on the left. None. They’re all out of context. There’s have also been multiple scandals on the right of corruption and lies. All of them. And vice versa. It’s a statistical anomaly for the ages.

I guess if you view the entire world as filled with nothing but bad actors spinning facts to suit their narrative you could see things this way. Not to say that doesn't happen, but it's not quite as pervasive as you think imo, certainly not around here where some of the loudest voices on this controversy are conservative.

Your both sides are bad position fails to grapple with the unique criminality of Donald J Trump. Perhaps the reason that there are so many right wing controversies talked about on this site, has more to do with that, and less to do with it being filled with liberals pushing left wing talking points.

 

[infection]

I guess if you view the entire world as filled with nothing but bad actors spinning facts to suit their narrative you could see things this way. Not to say that doesn't happen, but it's not quite as pervasive as you think imo, certainly not around here where some of the loudest voices on this controversy are conservative.

Your both sides are bad position fails to grapple with the unique criminality of Donald J Trump. Perhaps the reason that there are so many right wing controversies talked about on this site, has more to do with that, and less to do with it being filled with liberals pushing left wing talking points.

Here’s my prediction:

When Democrats take the White House, I’ll go back into the woodwork. When Republicans retake the White House, the new fear mongering narrative will be as follows: Trump was a narcissist who was out for himself and, therefore, destructive, but ______ isn’t just a narcissist, he/she is an ideologue! And this is even more dangerous. ______.

When Democrats retake the White House, we’ll hear about how much more dangerous ______ is that Obama (15 lbs of muscle!). But I’ll be in the woodwork.

When I surface from the woodwork to point out the cyclical hyperbole and limited self-reflection, it will be secondary to my political bias, because I really fail to grasp the clear and present danger ______ is to our country.

And, yes, the image of Trump will soften. No, he won’t be liked, but the hatred of _____ will distort past memory. It sure as hell did for Bush.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Here’s my prediction:

When Democrats take the White House, I’ll go back into the woodwork. When Republicans retake the White House, the new fear mongering narrative will be as follows: Trump was a narcissist who was out for himself and, therefore, destructive, but ______ isn’t just a narcissist, he/she is an ideologue! And this is even more dangerous. ______.

When Democrats retake the White House, we’ll hear about how much more dangerous ______ is that Obama (15 lbs of muscle!). But I’ll be in the woodwork.

When I surface from the woodwork to point out the cyclical hyperbole and limited self-reflection, it will be secondary to my political bias, because I really fail to grasp the clear and present danger ______ is to our country.

And, yes, the image of Trump will soften. No, he won’t be liked, but the hatred of _____ will distort past memory. It sure as hell did for Bush.

To everyone’s detriment moving forward.