D
Deleted member 365
Guest
The cover-up is failing.
The official "let's impeach Trump" thread
- Thread starter colton
- Start date
The cover-up is failing.
Zombie
Well-Known Member
Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
That's fine. I'm simply saying that from my perspective (and probably the perspective of many others) this "sky is falling" act is getting pretty routine. I'm willing to wager that you are wrong about the dam breaking. Six months from now this current constitutional crisis will be nothing but a footnote in the long litany of constitutional crisis we have supposedly been through. I absolutely agree that Trump is different from other presidents and that some (but not all) of those differences are negative. Where I think we strongly differ is that from my perspective a large number of those negatives are a result of the insane responses of his political enemies. In the past most conservative leaders have caved to the sorts of pressures that the left has become so expert in using. Trump is different. When they attack him in these sorts of ways instead of backing down, he doubles down. It's resulted in a very ugly experience, but I prefer it to the alternative of being governed by increasingly extreme leftists. I do not prefer it to all possible alternatives, though. I would be much more satisfied with right of center leadership.
So far the only Democratic Presidential candidate who I think I could bring myself to vote for is Gabbard. In the limited amount I've seen of her she seems to be a breath of fresh air. I would be strongly opposed to a Warren presidency. Many of her proposals are flat-out socialist.
That which is real often seems ridiculous. It is naive to think Swetnick's allegations are extreme in any fashion.
I just now told my daughter about you comment, and she compared to to flat-earthism.
candrew
Well-Known Member
My fear is no one said a word because crony capitalism is so commonplace on both sides nowadays, that no one wants to rock the boat.
Other than an affidavit from Shokin, a man of questionable ethics and a clear axe to grind, there's no indication that an actual investigation took place against Hunter Biden or Burisma while he was on the B of D. However, you'd think the republicans could have made something out of Joe Biden's grandstanding via the mere appearance of impropriety or at the very least a conflict of interest. Rather, I think it's very probable they said nothing because most of them have their own under achieving son or daughter or nephew or son-in-law set up somewhere with a gig similar to Biden's.
I also think this is why the left is not going after Trump on his brazen violation of the emolument clause - which at the end of the day would probably be a bigger winner in terms of impeachment than this Ukraine thing.
Zombie
Well-Known Member
I think the more realistic reason is that it simply wasn't a scandal then, and it isn't now. This is backed up by reporting on it back when it happened.
It was bad optics sure, but especially when you keep in mind all the ludicrous things that were brought up by the right against the Obama administration, if this was as big of a deal as Trump is trying to make it out to be, it absolutely would have been brought up.
As for emolulents I just don't think the public sees the issue as something worth impeaching him over. It's been a problem with Trump from day one, seems like it would be difficult to justify centering impeachment around that now.
That said, there's nothing stopping the house from adding to the list when/if articles of impeachment get drafted.
Red
Well-Known Member
Well, we are really very, very far apart. I like to think I am looking at this as an example of a president who has his interests, not his country's best interests, in mind. As such, I would hope I would oppose any president of either party who was so inclined. And it's not that self interest is a crime. But I must call into question his actions that serve his particular self interest. He welcomed help from our number one geopolitical adversary in the 2016 election.
Now, treason is normally defined within the context of actual war, lending aid and comfort to the enemy, so welcoming Russian assistance was not treason, I guess, but I still see it as a treasonous stance. I cannot accept that. If it's true that he told the Russians he was unconcerned with their interference, that's just like he's doubling down on his treasonous mind set, from my perspective.
And I think his behavior overall, I can't summarize it here, but @colton listed plenty of poor behavior to jump start this thread, is reason aplenty to go after him every which way possible. Politics is a blood sport anyway. In this instance, I happen to believe it is justified to go at him with every weapon at hand. He IS the constitutional crisis. I accept that you do not find this political warfare justified, that is partly why we are so far apart.
Here's a guy who sat next to the new Ukraine president, at the UN, and urged him to make up with Putin. The guy who invaded his country. I'll bet that was music to Putin's ears. I swear, it is well nigh impossible for me to see Trump as being on our side.
I suppose this all rests on how I was raised, and had instilled in me ideas as to what America represented, the ideals we upheld, etc. It may be quite naive of me. And I'm not suggesting that you are lacking in your own feelings for America. Except for the obvious trolls, people of different political persuasions partake in these discussions because they care about America.
Red
Well-Known Member
I don't want semantic misunderstandings. If I say "the dam broke", I'm talking about the amount of revealing info in a short time. It was enough to motivate Pelosi. It was enough to put the Democrats in full impeachment mode. The Mueller Report didn't do that. The Mueller Report was defused by the AG and Trump, and few Americans read it. And Mueller himself did not provide the hoped for optics that Democrats anticipated. Yet, tellingly, I think, the behavior between this event and the embrace of Russian help in 2016 is in a similar vein. And it's not like Trump didn't say he would welcome further foreign help. He said it right out in the open on ABC. He's sometimes honest in strange self-revelatory ways.
This singular event, developing over a handful of days, triggered full impeachment mode, and, in this event, everybody gets to see the info and the emergent narratives in real time, in a fashion and directness far exceeding the ability of the Mueller Report, which described events in the past, to permeate public awareness. It's simple to understand, and has been like a bolt out of the blue. In these ways, the dam broke.
I don't say it to mean "this is the end of Trump". It simply refers to the event that launched a more concerted impeachment mode on the part of the Democrats. So I think it will still apply for awhile. None of us know with certainty what the outcome will be, but it will be a consuming thing. Been reading about physical/psychological toll of the past 3 years on Americans.
Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
I think the impeachment effort is ultimately going to strengthen and broaden Trump's support. The problem for the Dems is that they make themselves very vulnerable with their constant and easily refuted exaggerations. Adam Schiff's bizarre "satiric" opening to the hearing last week, for example. AOC's constantly overblown analysis for another. CNN's ridiculously lopsided coverage for yet another. The average American is going to see Trump as unfairly and unreasonably portrayed and defamed.
D
Deleted member 365
Guest
No big deal. Totally normal.
Trump wants to:
1. Know who the whistleblower is and who he complained to.
2. Execute one of the members of Congress who’s investigating him.
Totally normal. Definitely tells the rest of the nation that the president isn’t corrupt or abusing his powers. Definitely reassures the nation that he won’t use the whistleblower’s identity to cause harm to he/she.
Are we in a constitutional crisis yet? How much longer are we going to let the nation with the second most nukes in the world and the greatest military in the world be led by an authoritarian who’s daily corrupting our government?
So true
Trump wants to:
1. Know who the whistleblower is and who he complained to.
2. Execute one of the members of Congress who’s investigating him.
Totally normal. Definitely tells the rest of the nation that the president isn’t corrupt or abusing his powers. Definitely reassures the nation that he won’t use the whistleblower’s identity to cause harm to he/she.
Are we in a constitutional crisis yet? How much longer are we going to let the nation with the second most nukes in the world and the greatest military in the world be led by an authoritarian who’s daily corrupting our government?
So true
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Red
Well-Known Member
Yes, I recognize some of the weaknesses of the Democrats, at times, and certainly the risks involved in impeachment. I would prefer to lose, and let future generations recognize we tried to protect our democracy, then not try at all. Some think as you do, some think otherwise, but I think, to show we stood up when we were called upon to do so, is simply accepting the responsibility that comes with citizenship. I do want the future to judge us well, at least where this matter pertains. Some people don't take these responsibilities seriously, that's their choice. I think activism is a good thing, wielded responsibly.
Hey, I actually came up with a short form! Lol: The dam represents resistance to impeachment. The waters held by the dam represent information involving actions by Trump that might impel impeachment. The dam breaking represents the information spilling out into greater public awareness, triggering the sudden launch of an impeachment inquiry.