The trade winds are a'blowin'...

[Handlogten's Heros]

FWIW, Collins also seems to be the Jazz's locker room guy, the upbeat, hard-working vet that mentors and encourages the young guys.

And that is good... if we have to move him to the bench hopefully he keeps that same energy.

 

[Elizah Huge]

FWIW, Collins also seems to be the Jazz's locker room guy, the upbeat, hard-working vet that mentors and encourages the young guys.

Leader

 

[HermanG]

To be clear I’m not scapegoating him… I’m more pondering the disconnect between his individual performance and the team on court performance.

I think you may have pinpointed the issue… he’s not the problem but he’s not the solution. It’s a lot to pay for neutral? Not sure what the opportunity costs were but the idea that he’s was free just isn’t true. While he has performed well I’d take a get out of jail free card if I could. It’s partly him and partly the situation.

If the rationale behind getting him is “we like John the player” I can understand what DA was going for. If it was “we can flip this into something better or draft assets” I think we will be disappointed.

First step here is get Lauri back and see if Lauri JC Kessler works now that they are healthy and our guards aren’t as bad as they were to start the season. I would have thought the focus of the season would be to build around Lauri Walker and the young guys and the Collins thing adds this side quest that is distracting imo.

I think there is upside, and him getting back to his old 3P level already alleviates the biggest concern.

Also people are harsh on him because they were opposed to the trade, and nothing is more important than being right on the internet.

However they might end up being double wrong here, if DA is not even planning on trading him out.

Collins is best paired with a star player who can utilize his perimeter shooting, rim running and PnR. So if a trade for such guy comes available, we can send him out to cover large portion of the salary, or if they dont want him he suddenly turns into a worthy keeper who should expect a major boost in stats.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think there is upside, and him getting back to his old 3P level already alleviates the biggest concern.

I don't think he'd have a big market at all right now. I'd love for someone else to throw some deals out there that make sense.

Also people are harsh on him because they were opposed to the trade, and nothing is more important than being right on the internet.

However they might end up being double wrong here, if DA is not even planning on trading him out.

I've kind of said the only fact pattern that makes sense to me is DA keeping Collins long term and not as some flip.

Collins is best paired with a star player who can utilize his perimeter shooting, rim running and PnR. So if a trade for such guy comes available, we can send him out to cover large portion of the salary, or if they dont want him he suddenly turns into a worthy keeper who should expect a major boost in stats.

I don't know that it needs to be a "star" and just waiting and planning on this star trade is a bit silly. The star seems to fix everything. So as soon as DA gets Luka/SGA or whoever then everything fits perfect I guess.

If we planned on Collins long term we should have absolutely gone and got a real pg as some of Collins issues are issues our other players have. We just seem to be playing the weirdest middle game ever. We don't want to fill a hole that might make us a playoff team, but we are also making bets on players like John... but we also didn't acquire a player that might help unlock John's game and help him boost his value.

At this point I think you have to ride with Keyonte but I wouldn't be completely opposed to getting a game managing pg to bolster the bench and run with some of our guys that need to be fed.

 

[KqWIN]

One way to improve a bad contract's value, eat some of the years. I don't think Collins brings back anything at this point, and I'm not see many buyers. I think we would have better luck doing some combination of Sexton, Clarkson, KO, and THT at a similarish salary amount.

I thought this season might go this way....I think we hide under a rock once again with the promise of actually moving forward at some point. Trade everyone half way through, get our pick back, and essentially quit on the season once again. Maybe we don't strike out on the Porzingis/Kuzma/Herro type player next summer.

 

[infection]

Two years ago we were the number three seed and 20-7. Ainge took over and we’re since 74-84 and falling. We’ve got a lot of picks, though.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

One way to improve a bad contract's value, eat some of the years. I don't think Collins brings back anything at this point, and I'm not see many buyers. I think we would have better luck doing some combination of Sexton, Clarkson, KO, and THT at a similarish salary amount.

Even then... what is the yield. If we took on $20M in dead salary we'd get a few seconds right? Could do it again this summer if we found nothing to do with the cap space and now you've filled the coffers with seconds and still have expirings. Waiting out the Collins deal until year 2-3 has some on court costs too.

I thought this season might go this way....I think we hide under a rock once again with the promise of actually moving forward at some point. Trade everyone half way through, get our pick back, and essentially quit on the season once again. Maybe we don't strike out on the Porzingis/Kuzma/Herro type player next summer.

I think we offload some players, but not sure we find a home for Sexton or Collins. Having cap space beyond what we need to re-negotiate Lauri would be nice to throw at an OG or someone... even if it is an overpay. We don't really have that. Should have like $40M and 15-20M needs to be earmarked for Lauri. So we can hunt a sign and trade or some lower tier FAs I guess. Having $66M allows you to do a lot and even helps what you could get for KO and THT cuz you can take on future money in those deals.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Two years ago we were the number three seed and 20-7. Ainge took over and we’re since 74-84 and falling. We’ve got a lot of picks, though.

Things were going to fall apart though. We would have really had to thread the needle with Joe dying and being capped the hell out without any young talent coming up. Ainge made the right move at the right time, but the follow up has been really "meh".

 

[HermanG]

I don't think he'd have a big market at all right now. I'd love for someone else to throw some deals out there that make sense.

I've kind of said the only fact pattern that makes sense to me is DA keeping Collins long term and not as some flip.

I don't know that it needs to be a "star" and just waiting and planning on this star trade is a bit silly. The star seems to fix everything. So as soon as DA gets Luka/SGA or whoever then everything fits perfect I guess.

If we planned on Collins long term we should have absolutely gone and got a real pg as some of Collins issues are issues our other players have. We just seem to be playing the weirdest middle game ever. We don't want to fill a hole that might make us a playoff team, but we are also making bets on players like John... but we also didn't acquire a player that might help unlock John's game and help him boost his value.

At this point I think you have to ride with Keyonte but I wouldn't be completely opposed to getting a game managing pg to bolster the bench and run with some of our guys that need to be fed.

I believe they really wanted Jrue to make it work better this year, but looking at the price Boston paid I dont think you do that for a rental/stopgap solution.

However I'm not yet giving up on this year being a non-tanking year. I think Hardy will make it work if JC and Key start shooting and finishing with reasonable efficiency, and we trade out or bench one of Sexton and THT.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I believe they really wanted Jrue to make it work better this year, but looking at the price Boston paid I dont think you do that for a rental/stopgap solution.

At some point (not that I'm saying we are there) you do have to call a star player's bluff though. And I think the reasoning will be similar - Can't give up 3 picks for a guy on a one year deal. Otherwise the "stars" we will look at will be flawed (cough - Zach Lavine - cough). Stars with multiple years left that are willing to "add us to their list" will be few and far between.

I just think if you are waiting on the star and you are adding talent like John Collins... then you need to find SOME stopgap option like Tyus Jones or Brogdon. If you do one then you should do the other. If you are tanking then don't take on long salary for solid vet help. Its the weirdest middle path we have decided to walk. Hoping THT or Sexton was a real pg was rough.

However I'm not yet giving up on this year being a non-tanking year. I think Hardy will make it work if JC and Key start shooting and finishing with reasonable efficiency, and we trade out or bench one of Sexton and THT.

We shall see but we are looking the part of the 6th best team in the nba and will need to strike early in trade season if we are going to push for the play-in.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

I don't think Collins brings back anything at this point, and I'm not see many buyers.

He didn't have a market before we traded for him and he doesn't have a market now.

Fans always talk about "showcasing" players to "improve their trade value", which usually means giving a dude lots of undeserved PT so he can rack up some meaningless counting stats. NBA GMs make mistakes now and then but they're not THAT easily fooled. Everyone knows who John Collins is.

Collins' value bottomed out in Atlanta, but not because he couldn't make perimeter shots for a while with his wonky finger. It happened because he's not good enough to play in the kind of role he needs to maximize his skills. He needs a super spaced interior, constant involvement in high pick and rolls, rim protection around him, and a genius of a PG to get him the ball when he dives. He was always undersized for a "big", but for a few years he was also hyper athletic because he was juicing. That helped.

In the modern NBA game, a player who needs to roam the interior like that to function well also has to be much more of a hub type. The straight line, pogo stick rim runner still exists, but that's not a $25 million per year player... or an automatic starter. On the Jazz, Collins has looked lost because he still doesn't have his old "comfort zone" role. He's trying to be an opportunistic scorer and spending much more time on the weak side, but that's just not him. And almost nobody's trading for Collins to play like that while he makes 25 per year.

The trouble is, he's not the old alley-oop monster anymore either. He's lost just enough athleticism for it to matter. So what is he? Ideally, the ultimate luxury bench player who you play when the matchup is exactly right. The market is very small for guys like that.

 

[sip]

Two years ago we were the number three seed and 20-7. Ainge took over and we’re since 74-84 and falling. We’ve got a lot of picks, though.

I love how you ignore the fact that the jazz looked like crap the 2nd half of that season before he did much of anything. The Mitchell/Gobert era was dead at that point and you can thank Dennis Lindsey and his incompetence for that.