The trade winds are a'blowin'...

[HermanG]

I don't think he'd have a big market at all right now. I'd love for someone else to throw some deals out there that make sense.

I've kind of said the only fact pattern that makes sense to me is DA keeping Collins long term and not as some flip.

I don't know that it needs to be a "star" and just waiting and planning on this star trade is a bit silly. The star seems to fix everything. So as soon as DA gets Luka/SGA or whoever then everything fits perfect I guess.

If we planned on Collins long term we should have absolutely gone and got a real pg as some of Collins issues are issues our other players have. We just seem to be playing the weirdest middle game ever. We don't want to fill a hole that might make us a playoff team, but we are also making bets on players like John... but we also didn't acquire a player that might help unlock John's game and help him boost his value.

At this point I think you have to ride with Keyonte but I wouldn't be completely opposed to getting a game managing pg to bolster the bench and run with some of our guys that need to be fed.

I believe they really wanted Jrue to make it work better this year, but looking at the price Boston paid I dont think you do that for a rental/stopgap solution.

However I'm not yet giving up on this year being a non-tanking year. I think Hardy will make it work if JC and Key start shooting and finishing with reasonable efficiency, and we trade out or bench one of Sexton and THT.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I believe they really wanted Jrue to make it work better this year, but looking at the price Boston paid I dont think you do that for a rental/stopgap solution.

At some point (not that I'm saying we are there) you do have to call a star player's bluff though. And I think the reasoning will be similar - Can't give up 3 picks for a guy on a one year deal. Otherwise the "stars" we will look at will be flawed (cough - Zach Lavine - cough). Stars with multiple years left that are willing to "add us to their list" will be few and far between.

I just think if you are waiting on the star and you are adding talent like John Collins... then you need to find SOME stopgap option like Tyus Jones or Brogdon. If you do one then you should do the other. If you are tanking then don't take on long salary for solid vet help. Its the weirdest middle path we have decided to walk. Hoping THT or Sexton was a real pg was rough.

However I'm not yet giving up on this year being a non-tanking year. I think Hardy will make it work if JC and Key start shooting and finishing with reasonable efficiency, and we trade out or bench one of Sexton and THT.

We shall see but we are looking the part of the 6th best team in the nba and will need to strike early in trade season if we are going to push for the play-in.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

I don't think Collins brings back anything at this point, and I'm not see many buyers.

He didn't have a market before we traded for him and he doesn't have a market now.

Fans always talk about "showcasing" players to "improve their trade value", which usually means giving a dude lots of undeserved PT so he can rack up some meaningless counting stats. NBA GMs make mistakes now and then but they're not THAT easily fooled. Everyone knows who John Collins is.

Collins' value bottomed out in Atlanta, but not because he couldn't make perimeter shots for a while with his wonky finger. It happened because he's not good enough to play in the kind of role he needs to maximize his skills. He needs a super spaced interior, constant involvement in high pick and rolls, rim protection around him, and a genius of a PG to get him the ball when he dives. He was always undersized for a "big", but for a few years he was also hyper athletic because he was juicing. That helped.

In the modern NBA game, a player who needs to roam the interior like that to function well also has to be much more of a hub type. The straight line, pogo stick rim runner still exists, but that's not a $25 million per year player... or an automatic starter. On the Jazz, Collins has looked lost because he still doesn't have his old "comfort zone" role. He's trying to be an opportunistic scorer and spending much more time on the weak side, but that's just not him. And almost nobody's trading for Collins to play like that while he makes 25 per year.

The trouble is, he's not the old alley-oop monster anymore either. He's lost just enough athleticism for it to matter. So what is he? Ideally, the ultimate luxury bench player who you play when the matchup is exactly right. The market is very small for guys like that.

 

[sip]

Two years ago we were the number three seed and 20-7. Ainge took over and we’re since 74-84 and falling. We’ve got a lot of picks, though.

I love how you ignore the fact that the jazz looked like crap the 2nd half of that season before he did much of anything. The Mitchell/Gobert era was dead at that point and you can thank Dennis Lindsey and his incompetence for that.

 

[David Hume]

Two years ago we were the number three seed and 20-7. Ainge took over and we’re since 74-84 and falling. We’ve got a lot of picks, though.

I recall a lamentable transaction Sir Dennis made, in which he traded Derrick Bernard Favors to Oklahoma Settlement AND a future “1st round draft pick” for a future second round pick which was essentially nihilistic, nothing, nothingness. The repercussions of this misadventure loom over the Jazz til this epoch. I have much more confidence in Daniel Ray Ainge.

 

[Lauri fan from HK]

He didn't have a market before we traded for him and he doesn't have a market now.

Fans always talk about "showcasing" players to "improve their trade value", which usually means giving a dude lots of undeserved PT so he can rack up some meaningless counting stats. NBA GMs make mistakes now and then but they're not THAT easily fooled. Everyone knows who John Collins is.

Collins' value bottomed out in Atlanta, but not because he couldn't make perimeter shots for a while with his wonky finger. It happened because he's not good enough to play in the kind of role he needs to maximize his skills. He needs a super spaced interior, constant involvement in high pick and rolls, rim protection around him, and a genius of a PG to get him the ball when he dives. He was always undersized for a "big", but for a few years he was also hyper athletic because he was juicing. That helped.

In the modern NBA game, a player who needs to roam the interior like that to function well also has to be much more of a hub type. The straight line, pogo stick rim runner still exists, but that's not a $25 million per year player... or an automatic starter. On the Jazz, Collins has looked lost because he still doesn't have his old "comfort zone" role. He's trying to be an opportunistic scorer and spending much more time on the weak side, but that's just not him. And almost nobody's trading for Collins to play like that while dhe makes 25 per year.

The trouble is, he's not the old alley-oop monster anymore either. He's lost just enough athleticism for it to matter. So what is he? Ideally, the ultimate luxury bench player who you play when the matchup is exactly right. The market is very small for guys like that.

Very well said. That's exactly my take on Collins. The cost of trading for him is low, but you make a trade to make your team better, and he doesn't. If we truly view Lauri and Kessler as two key big men going forward, we need a forward who excels in defense and offers some shooting and offense, like OG.

 

[infection]

I love how you ignore the fact that the jazz looked like crap the 2nd half of that season before he did much of anything. The Mitchell/Gobert era was dead at that point and you can thank Dennis Lindsey and his incompetence for that.

I’ve registered numerous complaints with the DL era, long before it blew up.

I recall a lamentable transaction Sir Dennis made, in which he traded Derrick Bernard Favors to Oklahoma Settlement AND a future “1st round draft pick” for a future second round pick which was essentially nihilistic, nothing, nothingness. The repercussions of this misadventure loom over the Jazz til this epoch. I have much more confidence in Daniel Ray Ainge.

That was Zanik.

 

[The Jazz Wonderbra]

Gizmoduck sucks.

Gizmo sucks duck?