The trade winds are a'blowin'...

[Handlogten's Heros]

Fit is why almost everyone who didn't like the trade, didn't like the trade.
I didn't like the trade when it happened
Yet as I watch the games I really like Collins. Yet he doesn't fit still. It's weird

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

That’s what I’m saying… the math ain’t mathing.

 

[FalseFlagg K]

Collins would be great as a utility first big off the bench In a team with plenty of playmaking

 

[HermanG]

Collins' defense and rebounding are nice. The spot-up shooting seems to be working okay. But on a real contending team, he's likely a 3rd or 4th starter rather than a priority.

The main problem the Jazz are struggling with is their lack of on-ball creation and lack of ball movers. Clarkson and Keyonte are about the only two players in the rotation that both dribble and pass the ball. Everyone else--from Lauri, to Walker, to Ochai, to Collins--needs to be put in positions to score where they don't need to take more than one or two dribbles. (Sexton, THT and Fontecchio can create for themselves, but they're not really ball movers.) Then the problem with Clarkson and Keyonte is that they're below-average defenders who get blown by on the perimeter.

If the Jazz don't play Clarkson and Keyonte, the ball doesn't move on offense. If the Jazz do play Clarkson and Keyonte, then their defense is bottom-tier. When Kessler was out with his injury and the Jazz weren't playing a true center, this became pretty obvious. So now the Jazz have decided to consistently play one of Yurtseven or Kessler to shore up the interior defense when our guards get blown by.

Long story shortish -- Collins would look better on a team with better ball movement. His role should be like Aaron Gordon's on the Nuggets. He just doesn't have a guy like Jokic diming him and making him look good.

I think you hit most of the points well here.

Collins is being scapegoated a bit by guys who dont really have any arguments besides "he doesnt fit". However the fit is actually NOT the issue, but its the fact that with or without Collins we lacked guys who can create advantages for themselves or even more importantly, for others. Collins doesnt really make these issues significantly worse as he can generate points from his offensive rebounds or dribbling in from the perimeter or from the post and he does move around off-ball giving himself passing lanes and creating easy C&S opportunities.

His impact is positive offensively. His ratings dont fully reflect that but he has played more minutes against opposing starters than anyone on this team. On defense he has only been a negative because of Hardy trying to play him as the small ball 5 which he really cannot do. He doesnt have the length to protect the rim or to contest/bother taller players without leaving his feet. On perimeter and transition he is decent.

Our main two problems positionally have been guard and center play (Collins contributing to latter but that falls more on Hardy for not playing Yurt7 when Kessler was out). For the guards, if a rookie (who is playing at rookie efficiency and making rookie mistakes) wins the starting job around game 10 it tells a bit about the quality of play we got from the vets. However the biggest problem is that Kessler played really bad early on, and while we can chalk it on the injury it doesnt mean it didnt happen or that it didnt impact the team. I mean Kessler has -15.8 rating when playing with Lauri (which is Lauri's worst net rating by a margin of 8.7), and Lauri has an offensive rating of 110+ with literally everyone besides Walker, with whom the rating is 101.1. Walker on the other hand has an offensive rating of 105+ with exactly two players: KO (only 70 minutes) and Kris Dunn (only 40 minutes).

Collins negative ratings are more of a product of him playing a support role in a bad team where the guards play is poor on both ends and center play has been even more horrible. You can only blame him for not being the solution, but he isnt the problem either.

 

[Agent#00]

Collins' defense and rebounding are nice. The spot-up shooting seems to be working okay. But on a real contending team, he's likely a 3rd or 4th starter rather than a priority.

The main problem the Jazz are struggling with is their lack of on-ball creation and lack of ball movers. Clarkson and Keyonte are about the only two players in the rotation that both dribble and pass the ball. Everyone else--from Lauri, to Walker, to Ochai, to Collins--needs to be put in positions to score where they don't need to take more than one or two dribbles. (Sexton, THT and Fontecchio can create for themselves, but they're not really ball movers.) Then the problem with Clarkson and Keyonte is that they're below-average defenders who get blown by on the perimeter.

If the Jazz don't play Clarkson and Keyonte, the ball doesn't move on offense. If the Jazz do play Clarkson and Keyonte, then their defense is bottom-tier. When Kessler was out with his injury and the Jazz weren't playing a true center, this became pretty obvious. So now the Jazz have decided to consistently play one of Yurtseven or Kessler to shore up the interior defense when our guards get blown by.

Long story shortish -- Collins would look better on a team with better ball movement. His role should be like Aaron Gordon's on the Nuggets. He just doesn't have a guy like Jokic diming him and making him look good.

Hardy can explore yurt as a post up facilitator. Last game he did this and found sexton under the rim for easy 2 it was nice. We can’t always rely on guard play coz when they attempt more pass, there’s more turnovers. collins i think he’s a luxury we can do with or without. When he gets punished by bigger guys it’s torture. Like he shrinks. He’s consistent tho he can rebound

 

[infection]

I think you hit most of the points well here.

Collins is being scapegoated a bit by guys who dont really have any arguments besides "he doesnt fit". However the fit is actually NOT the issue, but its the fact that with or without Collins we lacked guys who can create advantages for themselves or even more importantly, for others. Collins doesnt really make these issues significantly worse as he can generate points from his offensive rebounds or dribbling in from the perimeter or from the post and he does move around off-ball giving himself passing lanes and creating easy C&S opportunities.

His impact is positive offensively. His ratings dont fully reflect that but he has played more minutes against opposing starters than anyone on this team. On defense he has only been a negative because of Hardy trying to play him as the small ball 5 which he really cannot do. He doesnt have the length to protect the rim or to contest/bother taller players without leaving his feet. On perimeter and transition he is decent.

Our main two problems positionally have been guard and center play (Collins contributing to latter but that falls more on Hardy for not playing Yurt7 when Kessler was out). For the guards, if a rookie (who is playing at rookie efficiency and making rookie mistakes) wins the starting job around game 10 it tells a bit about the quality of play we got from the vets. However the biggest problem is that Kessler played really bad early on, and while we can chalk it on the injury it doesnt mean it didnt happen or that it didnt impact the team. I mean Kessler has -15.8 rating when playing with Lauri (which is Lauri's worst net rating by a margin of 8.7), and Lauri has an offensive rating of 110+ with literally everyone besides Walker, with whom the rating is 101.1. Walker on the other hand has an offensive rating of 105+ with exactly two players: KO (only 70 minutes) and Kris Dunn (only 40 minutes).

Collins negative ratings are more of a product of him playing a support role in a bad team where the guards play is poor on both ends and center play has been even more horrible. You can only blame him for not being the solution, but he isnt the problem either.

I don’t know that anyone is scapegoating him, believing he’s the problem for our woes, or saying that he’s terrible. Right now he’s our highest paid player and our best argument for him is saying he’s not terrible. This is why I use the money-tied-up-in-a-1%-CD analogy. You’re definitely getting a return and your money is “safe,” if that’s how you want to see it, but it’s tied up, not liquid, you can’t pull it out for something else, and as reassuring as 1% sounds “in this economy,” you’re getting crushed by inflation on the backend that will completely negate any positives, but the books look a little better when you don’t correct for inflation or presume it doesn’t exist.

I’d honestly rather keep it in a savings account drawing 0.2% interest, or even a no-interest checking, because at least it’s liquid. The 1% isn’t worth the diminished liquidity.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

I don’t know that anyone is scapegoating him, believing he’s the problem for our woes, or saying that he’s terrible. Right now he’s our highest paid player and our best argument for him is saying he’s not terrible. This is why I use the money-tied-up-in-a-1%-CD analogy. You’re definitely getting a return and your money is “safe,” if that’s how you want to see it, but it’s tied up, not liquid, you can’t pull it out for something else, and as reassuring as 1% sounds “in this economy,” you’re getting crushed by inflation on the backend that will completely negate any positives, but the books look a little better when you don’t correct for inflation or presume it doesn’t exist.

I’d honestly rather keep it in a savings account drawing 0.2% interest, or even a no-interest checking, because at least it’s liquid. The 1% isn’t worth the diminished liquidity.

I'm not following the Collins contract in relation to inflation? FWIW I don't disagree with you on this, just asking for some clarity.

 

[default]

I would shop Clarkson and THT first. I don't see them on the team in a couple years and we are losing anyway. Also I think they might have some value to other teams even though more for Jordan.

 

[HermanG]

I don’t know that anyone is scapegoating him, believing he’s the problem for our woes, or saying that he’s terrible. Right now he’s our highest paid player and our best argument for him is saying he’s not terrible. This is why I use the money-tied-up-in-a-1%-CD analogy. You’re definitely getting a return and your money is “safe,” if that’s how you want to see it, but it’s tied up, not liquid, you can’t pull it out for something else, and as reassuring as 1% sounds “in this economy,” you’re getting crushed by inflation on the backend that will completely negate any positives, but the books look a little better when you don’t correct for inflation or presume it doesn’t exist.

I’d honestly rather keep it in a savings account drawing 0.2% interest, or even a no-interest checking, because at least it’s liquid. The 1% isn’t worth the diminished liquidity.

Entertain me here... why have you not once called out Clarkson extension for this exact same reason but called out Collins trade at least a dozen times?

Also your analogy is just bad and lacks common sense (which is revealed by TU liking it tbh).

Collins value dropped last season dramatically because his 3PT percentage fell and became a red flag due to his finger injury. Now its back up and at career high. There are more signs pointing towards a successful reclamation project than wasted cap space at this point.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think you hit most of the points well here.

Collins is being scapegoated a bit by guys who dont really have any arguments besides "he doesnt fit". However the fit is actually NOT the issue, but its the fact that with or without Collins we lacked guys who can create advantages for themselves or even more importantly, for others. Collins doesnt really make these issues significantly worse as he can generate points from his offensive rebounds or dribbling in from the perimeter or from the post and he does move around off-ball giving himself passing lanes and creating easy C&S opportunities.

His impact is positive offensively. His ratings dont fully reflect that but he has played more minutes against opposing starters than anyone on this team. On defense he has only been a negative because of Hardy trying to play him as the small ball 5 which he really cannot do. He doesnt have the length to protect the rim or to contest/bother taller players without leaving his feet. On perimeter and transition he is decent.

Our main two problems positionally have been guard and center play (Collins contributing to latter but that falls more on Hardy for not playing Yurt7 when Kessler was out). For the guards, if a rookie (who is playing at rookie efficiency and making rookie mistakes) wins the starting job around game 10 it tells a bit about the quality of play we got from the vets. However the biggest problem is that Kessler played really bad early on, and while we can chalk it on the injury it doesnt mean it didnt happen or that it didnt impact the team. I mean Kessler has -15.8 rating when playing with Lauri (which is Lauri's worst net rating by a margin of 8.7), and Lauri has an offensive rating of 110+ with literally everyone besides Walker, with whom the rating is 101.1. Walker on the other hand has an offensive rating of 105+ with exactly two players: KO (only 70 minutes) and Kris Dunn (only 40 minutes).

Collins negative ratings are more of a product of him playing a support role in a bad team where the guards play is poor on both ends and center play has been even more horrible. You can only blame him for not being the solution, but he isnt the problem either.

To be clear I’m not scapegoating him… I’m more pondering the disconnect between his individual performance and the team on court performance.

I think you may have pinpointed the issue… he’s not the problem but he’s not the solution. It’s a lot to pay for neutral? Not sure what the opportunity costs were but the idea that he’s was free just isn’t true. While he has performed well I’d take a get out of jail free card if I could. It’s partly him and partly the situation.

If the rationale behind getting him is “we like John the player” I can understand what DA was going for. If it was “we can flip this into something better or draft assets” I think we will be disappointed.

First step here is get Lauri back and see if Lauri JC Kessler works now that they are healthy and our guards aren’t as bad as they were to start the season. I would have thought the focus of the season would be to build around Lauri Walker and the young guys and the Collins thing adds this side quest that is distracting imo.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Entertain me here... why have you not once called out Clarkson extension for this exact same reason but called out Collins trade at least a dozen times?

Also your analogy is just bad and lacks common sense (which is revealed by TU liking it tbh).

Collins value dropped last season dramatically because his 3PT percentage fell and became a red flag due to his finger injury. Now its back up and at career high. There are more signs pointing towards a successful reclamation project than wasted cap space at this point.

It’s opportunity cost. Say we bought a 1% cd that can jump to 3% if market conditions are good… but it’s locked up for 2-3 years… what if there were significant upside investments we could make that have more potential.

 

[Elizah Huge]

The Collins trade was fine and is still fine. We literally would have had to sign someone to hit the salary floor if we hadn’t done it. We will need his large salary for a big trade.

 

[KqWIN]

As someone who's been high on Collins for awhile, I think this trade has played out pretty poorly for us. You win some, you lose some, and it looks like it just didn't work out here. I underestimated the effect of going from Trae Young to our guards, and his defense is really funky this year.