Tom Nissalke postgame show

[Archie Moses]

I'd definitely take Horford over Noah and not even give it a full second's thought.

Why?

 

[YB85]

Why?

He's a better all around player. He doesn't get as many rebounds or blocked shots, but he's a better scorer and probably a better overall defender. I'd rather have an inside guy like Horford than a hustle guy like Noah anytime. Don't get me wrong, I like Noah. I just think Horford is a much better player.

 

[Archie Moses]

I just think Horford is a much better player.

I think Horford is a good player, but I'm not going to make a statement like Noah or Horford is much better than the other. However, I think this goes back to my original argument that there are a lot of players that are top tier or close to (especially with the importance of having a defensive minded big).

 

[Stifle Tower]

30 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists is a great game.

But then again, what big name star hasn't put up these types of games? Dwade, Kobe, Lebron, Durant, etc put up these kind of games at least 10 times per year.

It was good game. But also remember he played 54 mins. Generally he gets 38 mins/per, so that's almost like playing 1 1/2 games. Average it out on that basis and he had around 22 pts. 5 rebounds, and 5 assists. And he also shot under 50%, so not great, just an average game.

 

[YB85]

I think Horford is a good player, but I'm not going to make a statement like Noah or Horford is much better than the other. However, I think this goes back to my original argument that there are a lot of players that are top tier or close to (especially with the importance of having a defensive minded big).

That's fine, but I would trade Al Jefferson for Al Horford right now.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

A- Nobody should be compared to Oscar Robertson.... pretty much ever.
2- I really hope this thread evolves into an argument about Fes's playing time.
C- The Jazz should accept a trade if Horford is offerred for Jefferson... is a true fact.
5- The next person to compare someone to Oscar has to spend a day rebounding for CJ at his next practice. (think 1-13, and long rebounds)

 

[Archie Moses]

That's fine, but I would trade Al Jefferson for Al Horford right now.

I really hope I disagree with this in a month. I really do.

 

[Stifle Tower]

5- The next person to compare someone to Oscar has to spend a day rebounding for CJ at his next practice. (think 1-13, and long rebounds)

Long rebounds, are you kidding me?
Rebounding CJ misses isn't like shagging fly balls; it's similar to fielding punts. Just stand underneath the basket (but facing CJ so you don't get bonked on the noggin) and wait for the ball to come down as it hits nothing but the bottom of the net. And when I say that, I don't mean that it goes through the basket. Quite literally, the ball barely touches the net as Miles launches airball after airball.

 

[Archie Moses]

Long rebounds, are you kidding me?
Rebounding CJ misses isn't like shagging fly balls; it's similar to fielding punts. Just stand underneath the basket (but facing CJ so you don't get bonked on the noggin) and wait for the ball to come down as it hits nothing but the bottom of the net. And when I say that, I don't mean that it goes through the basket. Quite literally, the ball barely touches the net as Miles launches airball after airball.

prodigy, if you are reading this, please do me a favor. Upload a video of CJ's airball that hit Elson on the back of the head. I want to make a gif of it and put it in my sig.

 

[Archie Moses]

Here's a fun read for YB and ruca.
https://www.sbnation.com/2010/11/2/1787722/al-horford-vs-joakim-noah-who-ya-got

This is from Monday afternoon, and if you're into abstract discussion of big men ideology and self-indulgent responses to fellow media members, then you're in luck! Let's talk about Joakim Noah and Al Horford.

Follow @sbnation on Twitter, and Like SBNation.com on Facebook.

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Nov 2, 2010 - Okay, so I've just spent the past two hours immersed in a Twitter debate surrounding Al Horford and Joakim Noah. No, that sentence will not make my resume one day.

But as they always say, if you're going have a debate, best to do it in the most senseless arena imaginable. YAY TWITTER. Anyway, if you follow me on Twitter, I apologize. There's nothing worse than someone that tweets too often. It's why I've unfollowed every athlete and/or rapper in the universe except for Kanye West. So, sorry again. I'm really not one of those people. To balance it out, here's something I would have tweeted if not for the hubub over Horford:

When Mondays get bleak, I think about Marissa Miller's iPod bikini: https://bit.ly/9osB4l.

See, that would have been a good tweet. But I was being attacked! Tom Ziller's one of my favorite writers around, mainly because he's one of the more rational, level-headed people I've ever encountered in sports. He's a breath of fresh air. Where others (including me) tend toward sweeping judgments and bold proclamations, Ziller's tendency toward sanity always keeps us grounded. It's great.

But sometimes we disagree. Like last year, I wrote this about Chris Bosh:

As much as Chris Bosh has progressed this year, he's still a power forward that plays like a small forward. That's problem number one. It would be one thing if he were just a 6'10 small forward, but he's not. Bosh is a very skilled power forward, and while that makes him a matchup nightmare for teams, it also means that he's settling for jumpshots in crunch time. Not because he's some dead-eye jump shooter, but that's all he can do. He's a finesse player that relies on jumpshots, and in crunch time against tough defense, he's not driving past anyone.

... Bosh may blame his teammates and talk about wanting to go somewhere else to win, but come on. His entire time in Toronto, the Raptors have been a finesse team, overly-reliant on jumpshots, and easily bullied on the defensive end. Who does that sound like? Hmm...

And a day later, answering Bosh's critics, Ziller put together this graph charting Bosh in relation to the other star forwards of his day:

Pf25scortz_medium

As he explained in his column:

So we're left with this: Bosh is an elite scorer, one of the best of his generation at his position to this point, and Bosh is a really strong rebounder for his position, even compared with the best PFs of the era. He compares favorably to MVPs and first-ballot Hall-of-Famers in these two categories at this point ... and these happen to be pretty danged important categories.

While the skeptics cajole about Bosh failing to deserve all the attention sure to be heaped upon him come July 1, know that he is worth the attention, and that assuming he stays on the upward path and isn't struck down by injury, he'll be well worth a max contract.

And going by the numbers, Ziller clearly had a good case. But look at this Miami Heat team. Can anyone seriously look at that group and not cite Bosh as the obvious weak link in the Big Three? And for all his "elite scoring", Miami's biggest problem is exactly what I mentioned a year ago—he's still a power forward that plays like a small forward. He can't score inside.

His numbers may look great, but against a team like the Celtics, he withered and settled for 18-foot jumpers. That's not an indictment of character or even an indictment of his talent. But it's a perfect example of why Bosh was overrated by all the people who put him in the same class as Wade and LeBron James. In big games, against tough defense, he's not nearly as valuable as his numbers suggest.

And just wait: all year long, then especially in the playoffs, Chris Bosh will stick out like a sore thumb among the Heat's big three. He's a good player, but he's not striking fear into Boston and L.A.

Heat_medium

I got to thinking about that earlier, when Ziller and a few others were taking me to task for my opinions on Al Horford. It all started when Horford signed his Atlanta contract extension, prompting Nate Jones—another awesome voice in the NBA blogosphere—to ask whether people valued Horford over Joakim Noah.

Picture_17_medium

And I said, "Unless a big man can be a dominant scorer (Horford can't), I'd rather have defense, rebounding, and passing (like Noah)." Then Ziller said, "Horford is arguably a better defender, Noah a better rebounder, and they are equals as passers. So I'd take the better scorer." It started cordial, but as the conversation unfolded, we hit an impasse. It ended with this, "your rationale was that Horford's 14 "disrupts" the ATL offense; that is bad rationale, and I cannot abide bad rationale." So let me explain my rationale here.

Ultimately, it comes down to what you want from your big man. What Horford gives a team in scoring comes from the low post. What Noah gives a team in scoring comes from (mostly) garbage points. By any measure, Al Horford's the more polished weapon on offense, and if you needed a basket and had to choose between these two, it's no contest. But it's not that simple.

For Horford to succeed on offense, he needs to be the focal point for a given possession. That means teammates getting him an entry pass, balancing the floor, and giving him space to create in the post. It hasn't slowed down the Atlanta Hawks, who were a top-five NBA offense last year, but Horford comes third and sometimes fourth in their offensive pecking order, behind Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, and Jamal Crawford.

If they wanted him to become dominant at what he does—scoring on the block—Atlanta would have to change the rhythm of their offense. A good post player is as much a responsibility as a luxury; to get the most out of a player like Horford, it takes effort. Look at the Houston Rockets teams from the past decade; with an offense running through Yao, a better scorer than Horford, they still struggled to cobble together a championship formula. And with Yao injured the past few years, the Rockets have been able to get more out of guys who would have otherwise been afterthoughts.

By contrast, Noah is a weapon for the Bulls regardless of whether Derrick Rose feeds him on the low block. He operates out of the high post, uses his passing to break down defense while teammates cut off him, and then he crashes the boards. Where maximizing a good post player involves a complex balance within an offense, Noah's impact is simple.

If Horford can become a dominant scorer on the low block, then he's worth the investment it takes for Atlanta to get him involved. But if he's going to score 16 to 18 points-per-game for his career, wouldn't it make more sense to have someone like Noah, who makes an impact without his team making an effort to get him involved, has proven a terror in the playoffs, rebounds better, and changes more shots on the other end?

Again, it comes down to what you want from a big man in 2010.

The list of dominant low-post guys is dwindling. Pau Gasol, Al Jefferson, Tim Duncan, Amare Stoudemire, Zach Randolph, and ... Who else? Blake Griffin and DeMarcus Cousins look like they'll get there, but otherwise, it's a short list of guys that make it worthwhile to run an offense through the post. If you think Horford can one day join that list, then locking him up makes sense.

Until he does, Horford will score 14 points-a-game—the prototypical good-but-not-great big man—and Joakim Noah will continue to be a difference-maker with his energy for Chicago. Go re-watch last year's playoff series vs. the Cavs and tell me that Joakim Noah's not a major piece of what makes Chicago so intriguing for the future.

So what do I want from my big man? In the absence of a guy that can score 25-a-game down low, I'll take the difference-maker who changes a game with his energy.

Joakimnoah_medium

So to all the people on Twitter attacking my rationale and questioning my sanity this afternoon, that's my final answer. Quibble with the reasoning if you want, but in general, Joakim Noah's more valuable than Al Horford.

And I'm okay being alone on this one; after all, remember when people said all that Chris Bosh skepticism was ridiculous? I couldn't help but think back to that last week, when Bosh looked completely outclassed by the Celtics big men, pulling up from 18-feet, clanging jumpers off the back rim. He was outclassed, overwhelmed, and just... Irrelevant. You know who he reminded me of?

Al Horford against the division-rival Magic:

12 Games 47% FG 8.6 ppg, 5.533 reb

Or maybe the Celtics:

11 Games 46.365% fg 12.0 ppg 9.8 reb

Or the Lakers:

6 games, 40.66% fg 7.5 ppg, 8.66 reb

Or the Cavaliers:

10 games, 44.282% fg 9.9 ppg, 9.2 reb

Or Noah's Bulls:

10 games, 49% fg, 13.53 ppg, 10.4 reb

Or in the playoffs:

27 games, 48.6%, 11.5 ppg, 8.3 reb

Nobody's saying those numbers are bad, but they're clear on one point. Against the great teams in the NBA, Horford's only good. It's not like choosing Noah over Al means shortchanging a young Tim Duncan. Meanwhile, here's Noah's playoff numbers in the playoffs:

12 games, 51.9% fg, 12.1 ppg, 13.1 reb

Who would YOU want?

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to Twitter...

 

[ruca]

Here's a fun read for YB and ruca.
https://www.sbnation.com/2010/11/2/1787722/al-horford-vs-joakim-noah-who-ya-got

thats REALLY irrelevant. back to the original argument, you said scola and noah are up there with the ten best players in the NBA, i named 40 players i thought better than them, ill let you win this argument, you have 29 other players to convince me are worse than scola and noah

 

[Archie Moses]

thats REALLY irrelevant. back to the original argument, you said scola and noah are up there with the ten best players in the NBA, i named 40 players i thought better than them, ill let you win this argument, you have 29 other players to convince me are worse than scola and noah

Noah's line tonight. 13 points, 19 rebounds, 4 blocks, 0 turnovers. His season average's have been Dwight Howardish. If you watched the game, like I did, you probably noticed how well he played, especially on the defensive end. I'll still go with Noah has been performing among the best players this year. (Easily a top 20) I also rank him higher up than others, because at his position, it's more rare to find someone as good as him. You act like what I'm saying is ludicrous. I'd rather have Noah over his fellow teammate chucker Rose.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I would take Noah over Rose 11 times out of 10.

 

[billyshelby]

I'd take Lou Holtz over Nissalke by a hair, but I'd pay top dollar to see them co-host a show where they talk sports, or anything else they want to talk about, while polishing off a fifth of scotch on each episode.

 

[Archie Moses]

ruca wrote:

ill admit though, scola and noah arent the two players i pay the MOST attention to (although i have watched them plenty) so ill give you the benefit of the doubt (with a LOT of benefit) when you say theyre better than horford, lee, jsmith and jennings. but point is, neither are anywhere close to being a top 10 player in the nba.

On NBA.com

Luis Scola, Al Horford or Millsap all might grab this rung if they keep playing as they have with sufficient team results.

https://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/11/12/race-to-mvp-week3/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1

Same guy who is putting Deron Williams as number 2 for race to MVP is saying that Luis Scola is possibly a top ten candidate. Yeah, ruca really owned me there. Child, please.