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Tough Day To Be In Law Enforcement

There is a very serious problem at the moment with police giving "instructions" that are not theirs to give. There is a lack of clarity as to what instructions a police officer might give, the correct way to follow those instructions and most importantly, what happens when those instructions are not followed.

I've talked about this issue for decades.

There need to be standard protocols. Ways for the public to understand the type of encounter they are engaged in when dealing with the police, that they are informed of in something like a civics class in HS. They need to know what actions are expected and legally required from them and what they should expect from law enforcement.

Likewise, the police need to then be held accountable to follow these protocols.

If either party deviates it makes it easier to understand who is at fault should a police encounter go awry.

That’s fair. But all I know is if a cop asks me to do something I’m gonna do it unless I know with 100% certainty, that legally speaking, I am within my rights to do otherwise. And even then, if the cop seems hot-headed, I might simply comply, realizing the dumbass might get an itchy trigger finger.
 
There is a very serious problem at the moment with police giving "instructions" that are not theirs to give. There is a lack of clarity as to what instructions a police officer might give, the correct way to follow those instructions and most importantly, what happens when those instructions are not followed.

I've talked about this issue for decades.

There need to be standard protocols. Ways for the public to understand the type of encounter they are engaged in when dealing with the police, that they are informed of in something like a civics class in HS. They need to know what actions are expected and legally required from them and what they should expect from law enforcement.

Likewise, the police need to then be held accountable to follow these protocols.

If either party deviates it makes it easier to understand who is at fault should a police encounter go awry.
Great post
Especially about the high school class

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Also, siding with guys who are resisting and in a few recent examples on meth is just...I don’t get it. I don’t think anyone has any idea what it’s like to be a cop. Talking about reform and protocols as if doing all of that is waving a magic wand that will fix a situation and work in every situation as if that’s how life works is silly.

Reminds me of idiots who preach academic methodology across the board that they’ve only applied in places like Princeton, NJ and think it should automatically work in urban districts. Sometimes, **** doesn’t work.

And ftr I am for hardcore reform. Hell, I feel like I’m the only person here who’s gone into detail about what can or should be done regarding it. This would help minimize such situations.

But yeah, methhead resists, superhuman strength scary as ****, inches from your weapon, bad **** might just happen.
 
That’s fair. But all I know is if a cop asks me to do something I’m gonna do it unless I know with 100% certainty, that legally speaking, I am within my rights to do otherwise. And even then, if the cop seems hot-headed, I might simply comply, realizing the dumbass might get an itchy trigger finger.
I would follow a police officers "orders" as well. The most I would ever do is say that I'm complying but not voluntarily. That would be the extent of any resistance I would offer.

But the penalty for resisting arrest is not execution. The police need to handle their **** better so they aren't so easily backed into the corner of "do what I tell you to or I'll kill you."
 
I would follow a police officers "orders" as well. The most I would ever do is say that I'm complying but not voluntarily. That would be the extent of any resistance I would offer.

But the penalty for resisting arrest is not execution. The police need to handle their **** better so they aren't so easily backed into the corner of "do what I tell you to or I'll kill you."

Okay and then what happens when a methhead doesn’t simply comply and gets physical, going after your weapon, you knowing, if they get ahold of your weapon, you and your partner might very well be dead, the adrenaline rushing like it’s never run, the poise quickly fading and fear taking over, wondering what to do because this is something you’ve never trained for and even if you had, that training was years ago and never put into practice?
 
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Why waste money on training officers to fight, contain, and also be in shape when they have a multitude of ways to infer permissible homicide?

Let's just be honest. It is easier to shoot someone, and then fill out paper work that insists "I shot him to stop him", Etc.

Asking cops to be in shape, trained in martial arts, or otherwise up to the physical requirements of the job might be a sensible standard if we were actually talking about professionals trained to protect and serve the public. But our understanding and our beliefs about what a police force should be have always been mythic.

What they have always been, since the very beginning, is hired enforcement of the property rights of wealthy business owners. The legacy of both the nightwatchmen of the north and the slave patrols of the south that preceded modern police forces bear this truth out.

I want to disagree but I can't.
 
No, but a ******* should exhibit some common sense and comply.

Are you saying citizens should outright ignore cops and then resist when asked to obey?

No. I wouldn’t go to that extreme, the same as I wouldn’t say “that’s what you get!”

Blanket judgements and solutions speak to our lazy attitude to this issue. Asking kids, with little education, to apply high social skills to complex community and police work is a joke. If we keep making these issues an either/or argument, we’re still just focusing on the symptoms and not the disease.


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That’s fair. But all I know is if a cop asks me to do something I’m gonna do it unless I know with 100% certainty, that legally speaking, I am within my rights to do otherwise. And even then, if the cop seems hot-headed, I might simply comply, realizing the dumbass might get an itchy trigger finger.

How would you feel complying with authority that has been used to victimize people who lol like you over and over and over again? I don’t think you can even comprehend that.


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Okay and then what happens when a methhead doesn’t simply comply and gets physical, going after your weapon, you knowing, if they get ahold of your weapon, you and your partner might very well be dead, the adrenaline rushing like it’s never run, the poise quickly fading and fear taking over, wondering what to do because this is something you’ve never trained for and even if you had, that training was years ago and never put into practice?

We trust kids barely out of highschool with this decision. Keep in mind things like this are currently 2% of police work.


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Police work is mostly administrative. Moving non-violent people through the processes, filling out reports, and processing bodies.

The fact that these types of interactions are actually rare in the grand scheme of their work, and that black people are taking the brunt of it all, only further speaks to how messed up policing is in this country. Tear it down and rebuild.


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Okay and then what happens when a methhead doesn’t simply comply and gets physical, going after your weapon, you knowing, if they get ahold of your weapon, you and your partner might very well be dead, the adrenaline rushing like it’s never run, the poise quickly fading and fear taking over, wondering what to do because this is something you’ve never trained for and even if you had, that training was years ago and never put into practice?
You're posting exactly what I think the protocols would provide... Clarity. There would be a way the officers are expected to act (predictability) and a way the civilian is expected to respond (predictability). When either party deviates from the "dance routine" it provides clarity when assessing what led to the encounter going awry.

I could write a mini book on this, and maybe I'll get into more detail, but these are issues I have devoted a lot of thought to since my adolescence. I have always advocated for the police having classifications for the level of encounter they are initiating (they sort of already do, but the standards are blurry, but they have "felony warrant" ect. that determines how they act in the beginning of an encounter) which determines their set of protocols. The public needs to be educated in what is required of them by law when involved with the police. Are they the "subject" of the encounter, a "bystander," an "associate," a "witness," a "victim," ect.. This partially determines how they will be treated by the police and what their obligations are. The "level" of the encounter can change, a speeding ticket, jaywalking, the police should be casual and respectful. If the subject does not cooperate the police very clearly verbalize to the subject that the situation is now at an elevated level. This should have a clear meaning to the subject since the public should be educated on this. But through all this the police should be using de-escalation techniques. If the subject does not respond positively to de-escalation the police should inform them that they are entering a "control of hostility" phase. That doesn't mean they get physical or use force. It means they are requesting additional support and they actually back off a little. Once the police are fully able to "control hostility" by cutting off the subjects ability to act violently in a way that would be threatening then the police need to be patient. The penalties and repercussions of forcing these actions by the police should be mounting at this point. If the subject ever acts overtly violent and threatens injury the police should be prepared to use non-lethal or less than lethal means to subdue them. If that is not an option and the person is posing a real and present danger, in fact, to anyone else, the police should use potentially lethal force to immediately stop the threat.

This would not be some hazy man I don't remember my training 19 months ago type of thing. This should be the way our police force is constructed and operated 24/7.

Next up we can talk about a phrase I came up with as a teen that others in this thread have mentioned using different words. But I have long thought that "selective law enforcement" is an extremely significant problem. Police should only be enforcing laws when necessary. But it starts way before the police. There should only be laws that are necessary to be enforced ALWAYS. If a law is violated it should require enforcement. Not a negotiation with a police officer. Police should not have to use any judgement at all in enforcing the law. That starts by eliminating the vast majority of petty infractions that give law enforcement an excuse to interfere in your activities, which they can later decide to charge you with or not based on how much they like you or your story.

Anyway, I don't want to spend all night on this.
 
How would you feel complying with authority that has been used to victimize people who lol like you over and over and over again? I don’t think you can even comprehend that.


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It obviously depends on the situation, but generally speaking, Doug Williams wrote a very touching piece for espn recently about this. In it, he mentions how he taught his son at a very young age that if he is ever pulled over, he is to be completely compliant and say “yes, sir and no, sir.” If I was black, I’d feel the same for my son or myself. As much as it might even piss me off, my life’s worth a lot more than my pride or ego.
 
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