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Trade deadline discussion


Thee Idiotic Minivan K

Well-Known Member
2 questions I have:

#1 is our main goal to win a title or stay relevant (like not become the Kings)?

#2 if our main goal is to stay relevant, I dont think we should take any big risk before the deadline. If our goal is a title, don't we have to make a substantial trade (which comes with risk) before the deadline?

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That’s the trick, is balancing a teams aspirations for championship status and Towing the company line. There is a **** ton of luck when it comes to small markets. You aren’t signing the top stars, the LBJ’s Durant’s and Harden’s of the world. As a small market, you can get lucky and have a Greek Freak fall in your lap at pick 15 or in the Spurs case have your Star get injured, tank the season, and have Tim Duncan come in the same draft. I’m just not sure what trade puts the jazz over the top, unless you want to explore Don trades, and even then you probably aren’t getting fair value. I think every year all or most teams are open for those kind of trades, but because the players basically run the league those trades are only available for a select few teams

While the jazz want to win a title, those franchises changing moves fairly present themselves even to the Lakers, at the same time the jazz want to at least stay relevant while they try to get lucky, in the case of a small market team, sometimes that’s their only recourse.
 


LoPo

Well-Known Member
Question, do you think Smart makes us championship contenders, is that a franchise defining move?
If we got Smart for Clarkson straight up, we have a shot which I don't believe we do right now. Everybody would have to be healthy and play to potential. Don and Bojan would have to step up to an average level of defense (which in the playoffs this is something they usually do). Joe, Royce and Rudy Gay provide a very dynamic bench unit while Quin needs to mold Paschall into our bench stretch 5.

I don't think Boston even entertains that trade, but that trade could be the missing piece.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
2020-21 Award Winner
If you think they all have similar trade value, sure. Why wouldn't you trade the guy whose worse. I'm just not going to be that guy who will say this guy is way better than the other two, but their trade value is the same. I think Bogey has a much higher perception around the league than both and is clearly having the best season out of all of them. The guy we've been talking about over and over is Smart. There aren't realistic deals for anyone at this point with options so limited, but if Bogey can get you Smart I would do it. I would also do it for Hart, but I think that less realistic at this point. He is having a great year and NOP isn't that dumb where they can't recognize it. If the difference between getting Smart and not is the difference between Bogey and Ingles/Clarkson, we should do it.

I'm not just basing it off of the DEN series. We've been this way for years. It's more often been Conley that's been out, but I don't see a reason to think that we couldn't do the same thing if we had Conley and Bogey was out. I do think you're highly overrated Bogey if you think the offense is going to have a collapse without him. Likewise if you think Bogey is on par with Mike. I don't think it's close on either end. As a total player, Mike is miles ahead of Bogey. I don't base my assessment purely off numbers, but the numbers would highly agree with it. The more analytical you get with Bogey the worse the case gets for him.
So you can't do Bogey for Hart or Bogey for Smart... tell me the Bogey trades we could do then...

In a world where you can turn players into units of value on both sides of the ball... I agree trade Bogey's 80 offensive units and 10 defensive units for player that gives you the inverse. Since we actually have to make moves in a realistic market i think any Bogey trade nets you more than what you trade JC and stuff or Ingles and stuff for... but the difference is likely not going to be that big. It also almost requires two trades if you move Bogey so that we can rebalance the roster. Once you put the fake trades together you will see that.

So if you can't get someone in Smart's tier then you are shopping in the Anderson Roco tier... I think you can get that player with JC and stuff or Ingles and stuff... and you are much better off.

Advanced metrics are great but they have worked against Smart as much as they have loved him in years past... they also tell us we'd be better off cashing in Bogey or Donovan for Kenrich Williams... so sometimes the traditional stats can have value as well. Bogey is top 20 in TS% in the league... for a wing scoring near 20 pts per game that's pretty rare air... its also a stat we lead the league in and is a huge reason for our offensive success... he's also extremely durable... he can also ramp up his usage... selling a guy off like that for Kyle Anderson is cute but it won't be a net win.
 

fallenchicken

Well-Known Member
Ingles/Clarkson/Butler/2026 1st for Jerami Grant.
Probably not enough to get the trade done, but this is what the move looks like that actually gives us a better chance at the chip. If you trade a core piece (mitchell, conley, bogey, gobert) then you're probably getting worse. Players don't get traded for equally valuable players--that's not how the nba trade market works. You trade future pieces for win-now pieces. That's why a Simmons trade has been so difficult for Philly--they are trading a max guy but need Win now, max guy piece back. Usually when max guys get traded, the team is rebuilding and looking for future pieces. But all the players they want to trade Simmons for are also on teams looking to win now.

So i think the centerpiece of any trade we do is going to be around that draft pick and Ingles' expiring. I don't think we are going to be able to find a trade where we swap role players with another good team. Plus we traded bogey and got worse that would be a total disaster for the team and administration, even more so than if they kept the roster as is and lost again--you got to factor in people wanting to keep their jobs.
 

KqWIN

Well-Known Member
So you can't do Bogey for Hart or Bogey for Smart... tell me the Bogey trades we could do then...

In a world where you can turn players into units of value on both sides of the ball... I agree trade Bogey's 80 offensive units and 10 defensive units for player that gives you the inverse. Since we actually have to make moves in a realistic market i think any Bogey trade nets you more than what you trade JC and stuff or Ingles and stuff for... but the difference is likely not going to be that big. It also almost requires two trades if you move Bogey so that we can rebalance the roster. Once you put the fake trades together you will see that.

So if you can't get someone in Smart's tier then you are shopping in the Anderson Roco tier... I think you can get that player with JC and stuff or Ingles and stuff... and you are much better off.

Advanced metrics are great but they have worked against Smart as much as they have loved him in years past... they also tell us we'd be better off cashing in Bogey or Donovan for Kenrich Williams... so sometimes the traditional stats can have value as well. Bogey is top 20 in TS% in the league... for a wing scoring near 20 pts per game that's pretty rare air... its also a stat we lead the league in and is a huge reason for our offensive success... he's also extremely durable... he can also ramp up his usage... selling a guy off like that for Kyle Anderson is cute but it won't be a net win.

If there's no trade, there's no trade. I'm not saying to trade Bogey for the sake of trading him. But I would do those trades if they were available, and that's the point. This "TELL ME THE TRADE SPECIFICS" schtick has no bearing on my opinion of Bogey and who I would trade him for. If you don't think we should trade him for those two or how he stacks up versus JC/Ingles in a trade proposition, that is our disagreement. If you're saying no trade is available for Bogey, we have no disagreement. I have said many times that I do not believe a trade is out there. I also don't think a trade is out there for JC, but I understand why people want to trade him.

Like I said, my opinion isn't solely based on advanced stats. I'm just saying they overwhelming agree with my assessment. "Advanced stats" is a broad term anyways, but I'm talking about the catch all stats. They aren't perfect, but if you disagree with them I think there needs to be a compelling argument as to why. I don't see it. I would agree that he is a pretty terrible defender. The complete lack of rebounding, defensive playmaking, and off ball defensive ability is not negated by his sometimes ok man to man defense against some matchups. That's the biggest reason why the metrics don't love him and I have to agree with that assessment on him.

Offensively he is a positive and a big one, but this team is loaded and I do not believe the offensive would come crashing down like you seem to be implying. I do question his ability to ramp up his usage in the playoffs because that was not the case in the LAC series when Conley was out. His usage was down and his 2FG% was very low. He played great because he shot the 3 ball great, but I'm not convinced you can add more "self created" Bogey possessions and see good success. He's gotten better, but we all know he is loosey goosey with the ball and relying on him to create more offense on his own is shaky. That's where he is not even remotely close to Conley as a player.

Again, I'm not saying the he's not a great offensive player or even that we won't have a drop off. But given our roster composition I think defense would go a lot further than offense. Same goes with JC and Ingles. We are at a huge surplus on offense while in desperate need of more defensive talent.
 

KqWIN

Well-Known Member
Alright... so here is my four team trade... likely do a follow up trade after this move, but I'd also do it on its own.

Utah out: Joe Ingles, Udoka
Utah In: Serge Ibaka, Nic Batum, Isaiah Roby

Clips out: Ibaka Batum
Clips In: Udoka

Deal saves Clips like $50M this year which is something they are rumored to be interested in... they may have to kick in a second to OKC

OKC out: Roby
OKC In: Ricky Rubio, #33 from Cleveland (they own Houstons 2nd) and 37 from Cleveland they own SA's second.

They are like 20M below the salary floor... taking Rickys contract gives them actual cash savings because they have to pay out the money and Ricky's cap number exceeds what they actually pay him... insurance is likely picking up part of the tab too.

Cleveland out: Ricky and the 33 and 37th pick this year.
Cleveland in: Joe Ingles

Gives them a one year stop gap... maybe they keep him if it works out but they can continue their run with another ball handler shooter.

We get some cap savings... a stretch 5 who is healthy for now... another wing that can replace some of what Joe gave us but hopefully a defensive upgrade. Might make Royce a little more expendable if a deal for a real defensive stopper comes along... gives us some good savings as well. Cleveland may not send out both second round picks... but we could add one of lesser value and I think its still close for OKC... picks in the 30s aren't sold off so they are more valuable.

Might be a little light to some team but I think the gap is easy to make up. Cleveland was one of the teams rumored to be interested in Joe this offseason iirc. I think it makes sense.

This is one of the more realistic trades posted. I think CLE is giving too much, but they have enough picks to set the value right whatever that may be. I wonder if CLE would prefer Joe or JC. Joe would be perfect for their team, but JC is more of a future play.
 

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