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Trade deadline discussion

Jingled said:
Not so much...7.6 ppg is by far his lowest since the 2016 season and his field goal percentage and 3 point percentage are way down from the past few seasons, assists are also down.
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His points/assists are a little lower, but his minutes and touches are also way lower. He’s not really performing worse, just getting less reps.

How do we explain his lack of touches? Is it because he stinks now? I don’t think so. I think it’s because of the team environment/situation and that if we needed him to get more involved he would very easily ramp up and produce at a higher level. I don’t think it’s his ability that’s capping him, it’s opportunity. If Conley/Mitchell missed a few games in a row and we played Oni instead of Forrest I don’t think we’d be having these questions. I would be concerned if I didn’t believe he could play better given more engagement and touches, but I’m not there yet.

Really, what we’re seeing from Joe right now is exactly what I wanted before the season started. I wanted him to take on a smaller burden during the RS on both ends. It doesn’t bother me that he’s coasting, it’s what I wanted. Maybe it turns out that he has a bad playoffs and can’t flip the switch….but my hunch is this lesser burden will pay dividends.

People were down on Joe this summer too and I didn’t understand why. There was a narrative that he falls apart in the playoffs, but that didn’t really even happen. He was probably our third best player in the Clippers series and one mistake that hasn’t been talked about much is that we probably didn’t lean on him enough in games 5&6.
 
KqWIN said:
His points/assists are a little lower, but his minutes and touches are also way lower. He’s not really performing worse, just getting less reps.

How do we explain his lack of touches? Is it because he stinks now? I don’t think so. I think it’s because of the team environment/situation and that if we needed him to get more involved he would very easily ramp up and produce at a higher level. I don’t think it’s his ability that’s capping him, it’s opportunity. If Conley/Mitchell missed a few games in a row and we played Oni instead of Forrest I don’t think we’d be having these questions. I would be concerned if I didn’t believe he could play better given more engagement and touches, but I’m not there yet.

Really, what we’re seeing from Joe right now is exactly what I wanted before the season started. I wanted him to take on a smaller burden during the RS on both ends. It doesn’t bother me that he’s coasting, it’s what I wanted. Maybe it turns out that he has a bad playoffs and can’t flip the switch….but my hunch is this lesser burden will pay dividends.

People were down on Joe this summer too and I didn’t understand why. There was a narrative that he falls apart in the playoffs, but that didn’t really even happen. He was probably our third best player in the Clippers series and one mistake that hasn’t been talked about much is that we probably didn’t lean on him enough in games 5&6.
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The numbers are quite a bit lower from last year... which may have been an outlier year for shooting. He is down from 49% catch and shoot three point percentage to 38%. His transition defense is putrid. The eye test, which is never the best with Joe, also shows me some decline. It isn't just that he is slow... it doesn't look like he has his legs and he looks a tad heavy in the midsection to me. No way to truly know unless you take BMI measurements there. He looks extra worn out though... which would only increase with more usage imo.

To not expect some decline in play is a bit dumb as father time is undefeated and he has a lot of miles from playoff runs and international play. Has not had time to just work on his body. The question imo "is this the new Joe Ingles or can he get his legs back?"

I agree he should be involved in more actions to force him to engage... but Hassan isn't the best pick and roll partner for what Joe does. Forrest on the court limits spacing and he is likely viewed as another ball handler so Joe maybe defers a bit more.

Joe was hyper efficient off the bench... was good as a starter but like earth shatteringly efficient as a bench player... so I don't think it is just the bench role or a limited role. If I had to split the blame pie I'd go:

- 50% age and wear and tear (last 2 years he has played an incredible amount of basketball)
- 30% guys he is playing with that don't fit well.
- 20% natural ebbs and flows of shooting.
 
LoPo said:
We won't get value back from a Joe trade that makes it worth losing him.

Clarkson and Conley both have good value right now. I don't see why we need Conley, Clarkson and Don when our perimeter defense is so bad.

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infection said:
My assumption is that Ainge, based on what he’s seen since being onboard, is probably feeling that it would be malpractice to keep status quo with our obvious defensive issues. We’ve got an expensive team that has a narrow window that took a lot of time to assemble. We’re essentially driving a Mercedes without insurance and many raising the question are told to shut up and enjoy the ride.

I enjoy the ride. That’s why it needs to be protected with insurance and I don’t want to see all that work go up in flames.
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You both can eat my *** raw!!! If you don’t think we are legit contenders. Who knows how far we go had both Mitchell and Conley not been well under 100%. This year there isn’t a team in the west that scares me. Yes, we lost to GS but we looked like the better team, just couldn’t get shots to fall that night on a consistent basis.

LoPo, trading either Conley or JC would be season suicide.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
The numbers are quite a bit lower from last year... which may have been an outlier year for shooting. He is down from 49% catch and shoot three point percentage to 38%. His transition defense is putrid. The eye test, which is never the best with Joe, also shows me some decline. It isn't just that he is slow... it doesn't look like he has his legs and he looks a tad heavy in the midsection to me. No way to truly know unless you take BMI measurements there. He looks extra worn out though... which would only increase with more usage imo.

To not expect some decline in play is a bit dumb as father time is undefeated and he has a lot of miles from playoff runs and international play. Has not had time to just work on his body. The question imo "is this the new Joe Ingles or can he get his legs back?"

I agree he should be involved in more actions to force him to engage... but Hassan isn't the best pick and roll partner for what Joe does. Forrest on the court limits spacing and he is likely viewed as another ball handler so Joe maybe defers a bit more.

Joe was hyper efficient off the bench... was good as a starter but like earth shatteringly efficient as a bench player... so I don't think it is just the bench role or a limited role. If I had to split the blame pie I'd go:

- 50% age and wear and tear (last 2 years he has played an incredible amount of basketball)
- 30% guys he is playing with that don't fit well.
- 20% natural ebbs and flows of shooting.
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Joe's 2021 season was incredible, but it's also an extreme outlier for his career so I never expected that to repeat. And you're preaching to the choir about father time. It's something I voiced concerned with over and over in the off-season. We have a very old team and age related regression was not something that was talked about much. Having said that, wear and tear would be the smallest slice of my pie. If we had the same team situation last year, where Conley/Mitchell were out and we were playing Oni instead of Forrest, I'd expect that Joe's level of play would rise on both ends. Joe has always been prone to coasting and not necessarily being engaged. This isn't something new, and it's definitely not something I'm worried about because this is exactly what I wanted to see from Joe. Age/miles is my biggest concern for Joe. I want him fresh as possible for the playoffs so coasting on both ends is good for in the long run.

For me, this is nothing we haven't seen from Joe throughout his career and I'm not at all concerned that if we needed him to ramp up, he could do it. My biggest concern with Joe is actually that we phase him out and underutilize him come playoff time. If you were expecting a repeat of 2021, yeah I could see how you are disappointed in Joe. That's not where I'm at. Where I'm at is that if we had Mike/Don in Covid protocols and Joe had a good week shooting he'd be pretty close to the player he's mostly been for the past however many years (2021 being an obvious outlier in his career).
 
KqWIN said:
Joe's 2021 season was incredible, but it's also an extreme outlier for his career so I never expected that to repeat. And you're preaching to the choir about father time. It's something I voiced concerned with over and over in the off-season. We have a very old team and age related regression was not something that was talked about much. Having said that, wear and tear would be the smallest slice of my pie. If we had the same team situation last year, where Conley/Mitchell were out and we were playing Oni instead of Forrest, I'd expect that Joe's level of play would rise on both ends. Joe has always been prone to coasting and not necessarily being engaged. This isn't something new, and it's definitely not something I'm worried about because this is exactly what I wanted to see from Joe. Age/miles is my biggest concern for Joe. I want him fresh as possible for the playoffs so coasting on both ends is good for in the long run.

For me, this is nothing we haven't seen from Joe throughout his career and I'm not at all concerned that if we needed him to ramp up, he could do it. My biggest concern with Joe is actually that we phase him out and underutilize him come playoff time. If you were expecting a repeat of 2021, yeah I could see how you are disappointed in Joe. That's not where I'm at. Where I'm at is that if we had Mike/Don in Covid protocols and Joe had a good week shooting he'd be pretty close to the player he's mostly been for the past however many years (2021 being an obvious outlier in his career).
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Fair... He just doesn't look right to me on top of the numbers stuff. I just think we still need that athletic active wing and Joe may be the easiest chip to move to get that. Having him as a guy that can ramp up is certainly nice and will come in handy at points during the season. It may be a luxury with good health and the wing need is becoming a necessity. If Mike or Donovan are hurt in the playoffs we are screwed anyway. Maybe in the first round we could slide by with Joe but not in the second round. I think we are pretty well locked into the 3 seed... so I don't care as much about the regular season and just want us to have the best potential team for the playoffs. Depending on the trade market and what we could get for Joe and a first... the best we can do may very well be Joe. I still think we are 50%+ to stand pat. I would almost guarantee we make some addition but if the trade doesn't involve a rotation player then I don't really consider it much of an addition.
 
infection said:
If only we had a young guy who could play PG.
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I'm about to get off the Butler train. The fact that he can't beat out an undrafted free agent for minutes says a lot. He must really stink in practice and scrimmages. He supposedly showed up to the Stars with an attitude that's he's much superior to the GLeague. That's my BestBuy story and I'm sticking to it.
 
homeytennis said:
I'm about to get off the Butler train. The fact that he can't beat out an undrafted free agent for minutes says a lot. He must really stink in practice and scrimmages. He supposedly showed up to the Stars with an attitude that's he's much superior to the GLeague. That's my BestBuy story and I'm sticking to it.
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The "he must suck in practice" argument is dumb AF. During the season they don't practice a ton... travel/rest days are limited in between game days. How much do you think they scrimmage? Not much at all.

He led all rookies in scoring during the preseason. He played well in the G League but not amazing. That team is also craptastic so not a great thriving environment.

If we had JB on a 4 year deal then I'm all for the slow play here.... We have him on a two year deal... we need to see him out there early. Its really some classic player/asset mismanagement. Trent has been pretty much ******** the bed every other game and Quin still won't budge. We are now 50% through the season basically and I'm sure JB has learned the playbook a bit more and has improved... but the chances for getting him up to speed by season's end are dwindling fast. We took all the momentum he had coming off a strong preseason and neutered it to spend time on a solid defender who is likely the worst kind of offensive player... the low usage, high turnover, non-shooter.
 
My wacky trade ideas.

1. Joe Ingles to Boston for Marcus Smart. Celtics have 149 mil committed in salary for next season and need relief somewhere as they are currently the 9th seed in the East. Joe's expiring deal essentially saves them over 30 million.
2. Bojan Bogdanovic (plus 1st round pick or Jared Butler) for Jerami Grant.
3. Send Dwayne Wade and Danny Ainge to Spain and have them talk Nikola Mirotic into signing for vet minimum (2 mil) to win a ring.

C- Gobert, Whiteside
PF - Mirotic, R. Gay
SF - J. Grant, R. O'Neale
SG - D. Mitchell, J. Clarkson
PG - M. Smart, M. Conley

This gives our starting lineup some suffocating defense, but still allows us to play 4 out, the bench gets to run the same. Royce O'Neale becomes our 4th or possibly 5th best defensive player and gets to start guarding the opposing teams best 6th man, instead of their leading scorer.
 
Joncolton said:
My wacky trade ideas.

1. Joe Ingles to Boston for Marcus Smart. Celtics have 149 mil committed in salary for next season and need relief somewhere as they are currently the 9th seed in the East. Joe's expiring deal essentially saves them over 30 million.
2. Bojan Bogdanovic (plus 1st round pick or Jared Butler) for Jerami Grant.
3. Send Dwayne Wade and Danny Ainge to Spain and have them talk Nikola Mirotic into signing for vet minimum (2 mil) to win a ring.

C- Gobert, Whiteside
PF - Mirotic, R. Gay
SF - J. Grant, R. O'Neale
SG - D. Mitchell, J. Clarkson
PG - M. Smart, M. Conley

This gives our starting lineup some suffocating defense, but still allows us to play 4 out, the bench gets to run the same. Royce O'Neale becomes our 4th or possibly 5th best defensive player and gets to start guarding the opposing teams best 6th man, instead of their leading scorer.
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Mirotic ain't coming. His wife hates the US.
 
So I see where one Joe Ingles and one Rudy Gay is good for one Jerami Grant on the NBA trade machine, which raises the following question. With the emergence of Bey and Cunningham, does Grant become expendable to a lottery team?

I mean it makes perfect sense from the standpoint of who wouldn't want a front court tandem of Bey and Gay, and on the other hand who wants the headache of having two Rudy's and two R.G.'s in their rotation?
 
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