What's new
By:

Trade deadline discussion

I just remembered today that we used a 1st round pick to trade Derrick Favors.

If we dont have to do that, we could probably be in play for a dude like Reddish. But I dont think we can really be in play for that caliber of player (either a guy who is really good now, or potentially good like Reddish). We got to focus on grabbing Yuta Watanabe. His minutes are getting cut because Toronto is fully healthy now. I think Toronto likes him, but they got a lot of pieces so they can't be holding onto their 27 7 year old 10th man that hard.
 
Conley/Donovan are a fine fit. They play very well off each other. Both are insane off the catch and off the dribble shooters. For the most part the balance of their playmaking is really damn good (besides crunch time) (and if you think Conley has somehow stunted Mitchell's playmaking or Mitchell would be better off with a bigger ball-handling load, you're hopeless).

Conley is a good defender. He's not perfect, but Conley's defense has never cost us a game. The Jazz dont have a problem of teams shooting over them and scoring. If the Jazz actually made people shoot over them, they'd be the #1 defense in the NBA. The "too short" theory is way way overblown. The Jazz have a containment and rotation issue more than anything when it comes to defense. Mitchell can play at least OK defense. He can be locked in and make rotations. That's not too much to ask of him. Yes he handles a big load, but his personal acceptable level has to be at a higher standard.


If the goal is to win a championship this season you cant deal Conley/Gobert/Mitchell this deadline, you just can't. It has to be using Bogey/Clarkson/Ingles/Royce/Whiteside. The goal is to take those player (the 4th-8th rotation spots) and make them into the two best players to compliment that top 3 group.


I'm a huge advocate of trading Mitchell, but I wouldn't do it at the deadline
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
They gave up a first round pick that will convey soon. The Jazz can't trade a pick until like 2027 I believe.
Click to expand...
2026 at the earliest but it will have language in the protections that could push it out further.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
If you feel like the issues are that severe then the issue is bigger than Bogey or any one of our starters. We need to swap out multiple pieces in that case. Which is flat out not gonna happen… not many championship teams trade multiple starters mid season.

Finding a piece or two off the bench that can play 25 minutes or so depending on matchup could have a good impact… obviously a guy that plays more minutes will have a bigger impact… but you also have to scan out a bit too. If a guy plays 42 minutes a night because his team can’t survive without him… it is likely some of those minutes get a diminishing return because guys aren’t robots… if you have capable players to allow that guy breaks it will help. It also helps protect against the foul trouble issue. Sometimes guys can’t be aggressive because they need to avoid fouls. So a bench player can also help those key lineups.

Based on the lineup data from the playoffs the key lineups were pretty good… regular season says the same thing. I disagree with the original premise of the argument that unless a player from that group is swapped out he can’t have a meaningful impact… in part because they wouldn’t close. If you’d like to take a four game sample from one playoff series where we had one key player out and one key player on one leg then fine… but we never really got to the “main” lineup in that series. Didn’t in the Denver series the year before either.

Trading Bogey to shake up something that was getting “destroyed” will almost certainly end in something worse. I’d love to hear a few of these trades. Kyle Anderson and RoCo would maybe get us 3-4 more stops per game than Bogey but they’d almost certainly give all that back with poor shooting and lack of any other offensive game… would also increase the interior pressure on Donovan, Mike, and Rudy. I think the net becomes way worse… and we’d be better off rolling the dice by trading JC or Joe (by all accounts he’s lacking energy and focus this year). Even if the replacement isn’t on the court at the end of the game… the other 24 minutes or so they give us can still be very meaningful.
Click to expand...

The issue is Bogey and the other starters/key players. We don't have enough defense, it's really that simple. To address that issue, you have change personnel or see internal improvement. Otherwise you're just hoping the same team has better results. To be fair, the Jazz have been so bad defensively it's difficult to be that bad again....but the same could be said after the DEN series and we all know what happened. We have seen any improvement schematically and hardly any improvement from individuals as well. It could happen. Better health from Conley and Mitchell will health, but I can't use health as an excuse when the Clippers were down an all time playoff performer like Kawhi.

The whole point about the minutes thing is that a player's impact scales with the minutes they play. I feel like that's pretty straightforward. If you're playing 6 minutes, your impact is limited. But if you're playing 25 that's obviously much more important. Depth does matter, but in the playoffs your best lineup and best players are going to matter much more than it did in the regular season. The same guys don't have to close every game, but having realistic options does make your best better. If you're playing 6 minutes, which could easily be picked up by Ingles/Clarkson, and aren't a realistic alternative to close games and provide the most value....your value is limited. But if we're talking about an 24 minute upgrade on the Ingles/Clarkson minutes...yeah I think that's pretty significant too. Those two just don't have much trade value if any at all.

I think the playoff data overwhelming supports a defense for offense trade. The regular season data does too. We've never really seen the "main" lineup in the playoffs besides the MEM series...and it did do well. I'm not going to throw that series out of my consideration, but to me it's clear that was a low level of competition compared to what the goals are. We also had a 115 defensive rating in that series, which would have been 29th in the league last season. So even though that series was a clear win, it didn't really do much for my concerns defensively. The main lineup in particular was not good defensively, even they though they played incredibly on offense.

But beyond the MEM series, we have two series where we were missing Bogey/Conley. Both are great offensive players, but we still managed to produce elite level offense. As concerned as I am about the defense, I have an extreme confidence in the offense. When it comes down to it, I'm confident that Don will get the job done. This backs the trend that goes back years in the regular season where we hardly miss a beat when someone has been out. The offensive talent we have on this roster is massive and adding a player like Rudy Gay has only added to that stockpile. So no, I don't think it's a certainty that we can't get better by moving Bogey. If Roco or Kyle Anderson played Bogey's minutes instead of more Ingles/Clarkson minutes it's not the same thing and maybe the offense would tank, but worse case scenario we can role with the same man-down team that has played at an elite level on offense. The upside is that you can play one of these guys and upgrade the defense while still playing the same high level of offense. Maybe that can only happen if they're playing instead of Royce, but right now we don't have other options.

If you want to talk about diminishing returns, we have to talk about the returns on stocking almost the entire team with offense first players. There's a limit to just how good you can be on offense and the Jazz are pretty close to approaching that in the playoffs even when down significant talent. The upper limit being the Jazz opponents of course. We have the talent to sustain our elite offense, this team has proven that. What we don't have is the talent on defense to play average defense, especially when adjustments get made later in the series. The problems in the playoffs are really clear to me. It's definitely not the offense. It's the defense and it could not be more lopsided. If we had Bogey against DEN or Conley versus the Clippers we might have been able to sneak away with the series win by outscoring the other team like we did with MEM. Those are really good players but don't address the weakness. With this lopsided roster, defensive talent is going to carry so much more weight. It really is the reverse of the teams that lost to HOU where it could not be more obvious that offense was the issue and that talent reflected those issues.

Put it this way...if we didn't have Bogey right now, would we thinking that Bogey is the exact type of player we need? I don't think we would. I think we'd be playing great offense, we'd consider him a great luxury to have, but our biggest need would still be a defender. That's why I'm willing to move Bogey for defense. I get the argument that we are unlikely to get a similar level player with a different skillset. Trades are difficult and trades that aren't young for old or financial moves are extremely rare to begin with. The trade market could be so barren that sitting on what we got might be the best option....but we should have been looking for this move. Nothing that's happened during this season has taught us much, so I'm not expecting a trade now after not making a trade in the summer when there were significantly more options. Although I do wonder if the FO is regretting not pulling the trigger on whatever the Ingles deal was. I think an Ingles/JC deal is more likely and I'd be in favor of that. I like our chances if we could move Bogey/Ingles/Clarkson for a decent defensive player.
 
I hate to say this, and it kills me but the more I think about it and though I fight it, it’s making more and more sense to me that the guy the jazz need to trade is Mitchell. I’m high on Butler, I just think he needs experience. I’m also high on Huges as a future replacement for the aging Ingles. I just think we could get someone that fits better next to Conley and helps our defense. Somehow I think our bigs would be much better offensively without him, of course that depends on what we could get for him.
 
We get lost in the technical components of defense vs. offense. It goes without saying that the defensive issues are gigantic and a very easily exploitable Achilles heel. But there’s a larger overarching principle that’s slightly connected but slightly more important, and that’s the mental weakness component. We can talk about how the offense is good and can withstand shaving some luxuries off the bolster the defense, but even our great offense that looks amazing as a composite comes to an absolute halt in the moments where everything comes crashing down. We can look and blame the defense for spurring those funks and there’s a fair amount of truth to that, but the collapses are pervasive on both sides when the pressure heats up. Us being aware of that plays in to issues with our confidence and we will continue to play tight in those circumstances until that issue is well in the rear view. I’ve made the comparison previously that it’s like young people having “erectile dysfunction.” I see a lot of people who have been treated for ED who don’t have ED. The issue is the anxiety about their performance hampers their ability to be engaged in the moment, but they can’t be in the moment because they want to try to force the focus into them being able to preform, which worsens the issue. Prescriptions of Viagra or others function to alleviate anxiety and take off pressure. This is where we’re at. It doesn’t matter how good our offense is, it’s going to come up much more impotent in those moments. This is where Quin has a paradox where he wants to adamantly do the same things but our crunch time strategies offensive differ so largely from what our system really is. Yes, part of that is a function of changing dynamics of the game, but also we show that we don’t trust the system when it comes down to it. And this connects to whichever thread was talking about Conley… we need Conley to assert himself more in those games and demand the ball and control the pace. Our great offense is going to generate really poor looks from Donovan in the closing minute or two.

I’ve been writing on my phone with frequent pauses and interruptions so this may not be very cohesive. But the mental toughness and focus issue will be an issues regardless of what changes are made, defensive or offensive. There’s a role for someone on a team to help everyone keep composure and to stop the bleeding. That’s the coach. Quin has failed to keep his guys composed or put them in positions to alleviate the anxiety and allow them to relax (like taking a Viagra) and two of the most colossal playoff collapses have borne that out. We can blame the defense for issues Like losing to Indiana (x2), Detroit, NOP, SAS, a depleted Dallas team, or any of our embarrassing losses, but those are straight up lack of mental toughness and inability to keep focus. The defense just becomes fuel for the fire. The mental stuff is largely on Quin’s shoulders.

With the view of the defense being fuel for the mental meltdown fire, I do believe the only realistic option is to minimize the fuel. So yes, I think someone playing 20 mpg but not in the closing lineup does a decent amount to remove some fuel. If you grab and Anderson or a Covington you will improve some of that defense but they will be absorbed into a larger mental mass that will be susceptible to the mental collapses, and their other weaknesses will become part of that.

This is mostly on Quin and if this season so far is any indication, he’s completely lost on shoring up any of these systemic weaknesses. But of course we can simply blame personnel (don’t get me wrong, it’s a large part of the problem). But even with ****** defense, we should have never lost four straight games against a hobbled Clippers team, regardless of our own health. We should have never lost a 24 point lead to lose in the fashion we did, healthy backcourt or it. We should have never dropped a 3-1 lead and blown what I believe was a 17 point second half lead to lose game 7. But we keep doing that. Even the world’s ********* defense should squeak out of some of those collapses with at least something to show for it.
 
You guys that want to trade Bogey want to throw the baby out with the bath water… this team is great because of our offense… the offense is great because of Bogey. His efficient medium volume scoring of huge. The fact he can ramp up is part of the reason we survive when Mike or Don are out.

Homeboy has also been one of the few guys who has actually stepped up when needed. He also has defensive utility that people neglect. He ain’t Trae Young… he guarded Kawhi credibly and it wasn’t no damn mistake… he did it to Lebron too… stopper… no but held his own… he also guarded Towns and Jokic in the post this year… I mean I’m sure that won’t come in handy in the playoffs.

Y’all crazy.
 
infection said:
We get lost in the technical components of defense vs. offense. It goes without saying that the defensive issues are gigantic and a very easily exploitable Achilles heel. But there’s a larger overarching principle that’s slightly connected but slightly more important, and that’s the mental weakness component. We can talk about how the offense is good and can withstand shaving some luxuries off the bolster the defense, but even our great offense that looks amazing as a composite comes to an absolute halt in the moments where everything comes crashing down.
Click to expand...
Every team in the NBA has periods of time they struggle offensively and defensively. I know fans get frustrated when the offense goes dry, but it happens to every team. As far as our offense goes we have a better offensive rating in the Clutch than we do the rest of the game. When it come to those last second shot, most of those mistakes this season have been on Mitchell making bad decisions. We would be better off running Conley in a pick and roll or other options. But frankly I think we need Mitchell getting more of those even if there are a lot of mistakes. Hopefully he gets better.

Defense is a whole different issue though.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
You guys that want to trade Bogey want to throw the baby out with the bath water… this team is great because of our offense… the offense is great because of Bogey. His efficient medium volume scoring of huge. The fact he can ramp up is part of the reason we survive when Mike or Don are out.

Homeboy has also been one of the few guys who has actually stepped up when needed. He also has defensive utility that people neglect. He ain’t Trae Young… he guarded Kawhi credibly and it wasn’t no damn mistake… he did it to Lebron too… stopper… no but held his own… he also guarded Towns and Jokic in the post this year… I mean I’m sure that won’t come in handy in the playoffs.

Y’all crazy.
Click to expand...
I agree with this. He can get beat pretty easily by faster players and he isnt a super physical guy. But he does try on defense and he positions decently. He guards certain types of players okay. He also gives us options of offense that no one else gives us. He exploits mismatches well and is a pretty clutch shooter. I personally feel like Mitchell, Gobert, Conley, and Bogey should be on the wont trade unless a team makes a crazy offer. Ingles should be the most likely to trade unless the team knows he is saving himself for later or something. Clarkson should be right there as well. I dont think we need a selfish offensive player coming off the bench anymore, we have plenty of weapons now. Plus his defense is pretty bad always. But, he can also get hot at the right time and could carry us at times. I also dont know how important these guys are to the locker/morale and that could have some effect.
 
Ron Mexico said:
Every team in the NBA has periods of time they struggle offensively and defensively. I know fans get frustrated when the offense goes dry, but it happens to every team. As far as our offense goes we have a better offensive rating in the Clutch than we do the rest of the game. When it come to those last second shot, most of those mistakes this season have been on Mitchell making bad decisions. We would be better off running Conley in a pick and roll or other options. But frankly I think we need Mitchell getting more of those even if there are a lot of mistakes. Hopefully he gets better.

Defense is a whole different issue though.
Click to expand...
Of course every team has struggled offensively and defensively. Does every team have that where it leads to dropping a 3-1 series where the game is almost in the bag multiple different times to close it out? It’s rare but it indeed happens. Does every team drop 4 straight after being up 2-0 on a depleted team, and give up a 24 point lead that would have extended the series? It’s rare, but it happens. Now, how often do those two things happen? If you flip a coin and it lands tails 5 times in a row, does that happen? Yes, it does. Not often, but it does. What if you flip it again 7 times and it’s tails each time. I could conceivably happen. But what if you did both? You flipped the coin 12 times and it was tails all 12 times. We’re getting lost because we’re saying each flip is 50/50 so it’s no big deal, but we keep ended up on the wrong side of 50/50, which tells you it’s probably more than just chance ruling the day.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page
Back
Top